Metals Industry strike - my take

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  • Ouman
    New Member
    • Feb 2012
    • 4

    #91
    I am an old man. I read this thread carefully and it is clear to me that few of the commentators have a clear understanding of how wealth is Created by Economic Development. Some observations:

    In '76 I joined the SA subsidiary of a USA company in Marketing. On my first trip to the USA I booked my Sunday trip from NY to Chicago via Los Angeles as I wanted to get a Top Picture of the USA. I got a window seat and for hour upon hour I saw actively used farmland passing below, interspersed with villages, small towns and industrialized cities. My neighbor on one of these legs, an American and I started talking and I said that I am amazed at the economic development I saw in the USA.
    He claimed that this development was largely due to only two words - “You're Fired” -. According to him this phrase works in both directions. If you are a good worker and the boss pays you too little you can fire the company and find better work elsewhere. If you are not good enough the company fires you and no employer wastes money correcting your errors. Pretty soon employers learn to pay you what you are worth and good employees learn to be good enough to earn well. After a few firings even poor workers learn to bite the bullet and do a good job.

    This creates jobs like no other (Go Research Unemployment in the USA compared to anywhere else. Just remember to also compare average wages as well) and pretty soon Emplyees become a scarce commodity and employers have to find ways and means to afford the productively. Refer this article from The New York Times of August 29, 2007 by Keith Bradsher on Chinese Wages [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/business/worldbusiness/29labor.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bradsher,%20Keith&_r=1&"] In this article Bradsher, discussed Chinese wages and told the story of Mr Zhang whose “wages” for a 45 hour week had increased between February and August 2007 by 34%. However if one reads a bit deeper you find that Mr Zhang's basic “wage” really only increased by 10%. He was paid per piece produced and although his pay per piece produced was increased by 10%. He figured out and applied productivity increasing methods that enabled him to increase his output in units by about 25%, resulting in a 34% increase in total income while working the same 45 hour week.

    Many South African workers lost their jobs because of cheaper Chinese products produced in this manner. Is this perhaps the difference? I have sat at Wage Negotiating tables with a COSATU Union many times. From this experience I cannot even imagine trying to negotiate a piecework wage deal successfully. I would like to quote two sentences from this article:
    “For decades, many labor economists said that China's vast population would supply a nearly bottomless pool of workers.”
    And
    “But factory owners and experts who monitor the nation's labor market, say that businesses are [now] having a hard time finding able-bodied workers and are having to pay the workers they can find, more money.”
    What a change. This change is the result of economic development based on using one's Strengths. Namely Low cost wages of large unemployed population leads to the exporting of unemployment. Greater domestic employment leads to larger domestic markets through internal market growth and higher wages due to greater learned productivity and labor scarcity. See this video of a Chinese invented productivity gain in T Shirt Folding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MtIqopmEFM as an example.

    As long as our legislation allows Communist inspired Trade Unions to dominate the labour scene - FEW JOBS WILL BE CREATED and our economy will be difficult.

    I have been researching a book on Why Africa is so Poor. If you would like a read of my present draft in .pdf form let me know at pieter.d.rossouw@gmail.com

    Comment

    • adrianh
      Diamond Member

      • Mar 2010
      • 6328

      #92
      Originally posted by PeterRich
      Psycho-graphic Model

      Introduction
      An over simplification but it gives an indication of emotion and intellectual maturity and is very useful in a marketing situation
      Overview
      This model is not based on race in any way or form, or education, although some cultures will have a greater number in certain sectors
      Every living person also possesses all four qualities in varying degrees and is usually dominated by one.

      How it works
      The model works on the principle: The identity of self or what your self-esteem is based on. One need's to interrogate each sector with the question “What do you identify with consciously or unconsciously?” or the response one would expect from the question “Who am I?”

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]4849[/ATTACH]

      A brief over view of each sector


      Compassionate God Self
      “Who am I?”
      I am a selfless spiritual being and believe in practicing compassion”

      “How do you make decisions?”
      Decisions are based on spiritual principles that will spiritually benefit man and mankind. Violence and force are not options that are considered.

      How do we communicate with these people?
      Simply by listening and aspiring to achieve their wisdom and values and besides they only constitute very small portion of the market sector.

      Examples of these people
      The Dalai Lama
      The Pope
      Gandhi

      Intellectual
      “Who am I”
      I am a leader and usually an educated person who responds to logical reasoning and understands that emotions are useless in a boardroom. I usually choose the moments when emotions are safe to reveal. I am very disciplined

      “How do you make decisions?”
      Decisions are based on facts and figures. I fight injustice and believe in human rights. I intellectually make decisions to the benefit of man and mankind. I will use violence only as a last resort and usually only enough to restore peace.

      How do we communicate with these people
      Pride ego and status play a role in these peoples lives but you also need those facts and figures.

      Examples of these people
      World leaders
      Leaders in boardrooms all over the world
      Scientists
      Educationalists
      I have always thought Colin Powell was a good example


      Emotional
      “Who am I?”
      I am usually a blue-collar worker, not an educated person and my beliefs are not always based on fact. I am often religious and often have superstitious beliefs. I have many unconscious double standards, which seem reasonable to me. If you offend me in any way I will resort to violence, and it seldom is, but could be fatal. Fanatical beliefs may also lead to extremist violence

      “How do you make decisions?”
      I intuitively make decisions and don’t need the facts and figures. Things just have to feel right and not a very disciplined person. My emotions rule me and often get me into trouble. People need to listen to what I say and not how I say it.



      How do we communicate with these people?
      These people respond to every emotion in the book, and are impulsive buyers and primarily consumers. They seldom acquire great wealth. The comfort of a branded product appeals to these people

      Examples of these people
      Most of us have a fair slice of this quality
      In it’s most radical form: I think it’s called Fundamentalism


      Physical Body
      ‘Who am I?
      I am physical body. Just look and see all the things I can do. I believe in force and control. I am physically strong often with a strong sex drive and will abuse any power I have, for the benefit of myself. I am constantly unhappy about something, if the reason disappears for my dissatisfaction, I will manufacture another or shift my focus to another. I have no emotional or intellectual maturity. I will commit any injustice, for the benefit of myself. I am capable of unspeakable violence and have little understanding of the damage I have done. If I can get away with it I will do it. I do not respond to logic and reason. I tend to be a wasteful consumer of products, as opposed to a producer and I am often predisposed to littering.
      The other three groups are so naïve, they believe I understand co-operation achieves more than conflict. It is safer to give me a gun because with it I can only harm a few people. But with knowledge and the power to use it, I can destroy populations and even nations.

      How do you make decisions?
      Promote self-interest irrespective of the consequences

      How do we communicate with these people
      Any emotion applies but they respond very well to power, domination and control. It may be possible to influence them, by demonstrating physical dominance, (this distresses the other three sectors, because they judge others by their own standards and values) or at the very least, convincing posturing is necessary. Loyalty may be possible by demonstrating fairness from a dominant position. A typical sales strategy would be to have pictures of “gifts” visible during the presentation.

      Examples of these people
      Africa has many examples (Wealthy leaders, and staving populations)
      Children

      The last two sectors
      Human Rights
      We often abuse power. We are the greatest of perpetrators and also victims of Human Rights. If we transgress the principles of Human Rights, we are often the first to complain that we are the victims and manipulate the situation.
      Do you work for the Microsoft helpline by any chance?

      Everything you say is technically correct but unfortunately adds no value to the current debate.

      Comment

      • PeterRich
        New Member
        • Jun 2010
        • 9

        #93
        Originally posted by adrianh
        Do you work for the Microsoft helpline by any chance?

        Everything you say is technically correct but unfortunately adds no value to the current debate.
        I though it would explain the behaviour we are seeing during the strikes. Why would we be expecting anything different?

        Comment

        • desA
          Platinum Member

          • Jan 2010
          • 1023

          #94
          PeterRich opined:
          The countries of Africa have destroyed their economies due to ongoing power stuggles. Why do people think it would be any different here. We need to put our goverment back into hands that work for their people.
          Precisely. The economies of Sub-Saharan Africa. Refer to Moeletsi Mbeki - Architects of Poverty.
          In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

          Comment

          • adrianh
            Diamond Member

            • Mar 2010
            • 6328

            #95
            Originally posted by PeterRich
            I though it would explain the behaviour we are seeing during the strikes. Why would we be expecting anything different?
            Maybe I'm being harsh...let's rather change our approach.

            What would you do to resolve the strike problem?

            Comment

            • PeterRich
              New Member
              • Jun 2010
              • 9

              #96
              Originally posted by adrianh
              Maybe I'm being harsh...let's rather change our approach.

              What would you do to resolve the strike problem?
              My post offers a solution, but I am afraid would not sit well with many people. You need to deal with people on their own level or it simply won't work.

              Comment

              • Len C
                New Member
                • Aug 2010
                • 3

                #97
                Striking well explained in layman's terms through this post.
                It reminded me how I battled to make ends meet in the sixties, what we as a family had to endure to survive.
                At the same time it made us stronger and more determined.
                The only difference being, we never endangered other peoples lives, damaged others' posessions and helped ourselves to things that did not belong to us.
                Today, through some poor business decisions, I am still battling to stay afloat, but what we've got we worked hard for.
                It seems there is no pride amongst the striking masses and they certainly do not respect their fellow men.

                Comment

                • Len C
                  New Member
                  • Aug 2010
                  • 3

                  #98
                  Dit is net my opinie, maar ek dink nie dat dit nodig is om so met die Afrikaanse taal te mors nie.
                  If your comment on Fanie's post was intended to be a joke, it failed dismally.

                  Comment

                  • pmbguy
                    Platinum Member

                    • Apr 2013
                    • 2095

                    #99
                    Originally posted by PeterRich
                    Psycho-graphic Model

                    Introduction
                    An over simplification but it gives an indication of emotion and intellectual maturity and is very useful in a marketing situation
                    Overview
                    This model is not based on race in any way or form, or education, although some cultures will have a greater number in certain sectors
                    Every living person also possesses all four qualities in varying degrees and is usually dominated by one.

                    How it works
                    The model works on the principle: The identity of self or what your self-esteem is based on. One need's to interrogate each sector with the question “What do you identify with consciously or unconsciously?” or the response one would expect from the question “Who am I?”

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]4849[/ATTACH]

                    A brief over view of each sector


                    Compassionate God Self
                    “Who am I?”
                    I am a selfless spiritual being and believe in practicing compassion”

                    “How do you make decisions?”
                    Decisions are based on spiritual principles that will spiritually benefit man and mankind. Violence and force are not options that are considered.

                    How do we communicate with these people?
                    Simply by listening and aspiring to achieve their wisdom and values and besides they only constitute very small portion of the market sector.

                    Examples of these people
                    The Dalai Lama
                    The Pope
                    Gandhi

                    Intellectual
                    “Who am I”
                    I am a leader and usually an educated person who responds to logical reasoning and understands that emotions are useless in a boardroom. I usually choose the moments when emotions are safe to reveal. I am very disciplined

                    “How do you make decisions?”
                    Decisions are based on facts and figures. I fight injustice and believe in human rights. I intellectually make decisions to the benefit of man and mankind. I will use violence only as a last resort and usually only enough to restore peace.

                    How do we communicate with these people
                    Pride ego and status play a role in these peoples lives but you also need those facts and figures.

                    Examples of these people
                    World leaders
                    Leaders in boardrooms all over the world
                    Scientists
                    Educationalists
                    I have always thought Colin Powell was a good example


                    Emotional
                    “Who am I?”
                    I am usually a blue-collar worker, not an educated person and my beliefs are not always based on fact. I am often religious and often have superstitious beliefs. I have many unconscious double standards, which seem reasonable to me. If you offend me in any way I will resort to violence, and it seldom is, but could be fatal. Fanatical beliefs may also lead to extremist violence

                    “How do you make decisions?”
                    I intuitively make decisions and don’t need the facts and figures. Things just have to feel right and not a very disciplined person. My emotions rule me and often get me into trouble. People need to listen to what I say and not how I say it.



                    How do we communicate with these people?
                    These people respond to every emotion in the book, and are impulsive buyers and primarily consumers. They seldom acquire great wealth. The comfort of a branded product appeals to these people

                    Examples of these people
                    Most of us have a fair slice of this quality
                    In it’s most radical form: I think it’s called Fundamentalism


                    Physical Body
                    ‘Who am I?
                    I am physical body. Just look and see all the things I can do. I believe in force and control. I am physically strong often with a strong sex drive and will abuse any power I have, for the benefit of myself. I am constantly unhappy about something, if the reason disappears for my dissatisfaction, I will manufacture another or shift my focus to another. I have no emotional or intellectual maturity. I will commit any injustice, for the benefit of myself. I am capable of unspeakable violence and have little understanding of the damage I have done. If I can get away with it I will do it. I do not respond to logic and reason. I tend to be a wasteful consumer of products, as opposed to a producer and I am often predisposed to littering.
                    The other three groups are so naïve, they believe I understand co-operation achieves more than conflict. It is safer to give me a gun because with it I can only harm a few people. But with knowledge and the power to use it, I can destroy populations and even nations.

                    How do you make decisions?
                    Promote self-interest irrespective of the consequences

                    How do we communicate with these people
                    Any emotion applies but they respond very well to power, domination and control. It may be possible to influence them, by demonstrating physical dominance, (this distresses the other three sectors, because they judge others by their own standards and values) or at the very least, convincing posturing is necessary. Loyalty may be possible by demonstrating fairness from a dominant position. A typical sales strategy would be to have pictures of “gifts” visible during the presentation.

                    Examples of these people
                    Africa has many examples (Wealthy leaders, and staving populations)
                    Children

                    The last two sectors
                    Human Rights
                    We often abuse power. We are the greatest of perpetrators and also victims of Human Rights. If we transgress the principles of Human Rights, we are often the first to complain that we are the victims and manipulate the situation.

                    I like it because mindset/worldview/attitude has a role to play in this. Besides the direct issues of unions and the employers we have this culture of entitlement in SA. It’s not easy to change this psychology/attitude practically so it bears little in way of executionable/reasonable solutions and I guess that was what Adrian was picking up on.

                    At the one extreme we have this “It’s my right to have a job and I will fight no matter what for a better salary, I don’t care about the consequences” at the other end we have “I am lucky to have a job and I will work hard to earn a better salary ”.

                    If the second attitude was more prevalent we would not be in this situation in the first place. The first attitude has its own reasons and it may even be viewed as a normal response.
                    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. – Charles Darwin

                    Comment

                    • pmbguy
                      Platinum Member

                      • Apr 2013
                      • 2095

                      #100
                      Originally posted by Len C
                      Dit is net my opinie, maar ek dink nie dat dit nodig is om so met die Afrikaanse taal te mors nie.
                      If your comment on Fanie's post was intended to be a joke, it failed dismally.

                      Here’s a clue

                      “Gatiep is my naam, maar onse mensies van die kaaap af jong, awe! ma se kinnis awe!”

                      My Chistian name is Gatiep. I hail from the fair Cape, !! greetings ladies !!.
                      It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. – Charles Darwin

                      Comment

                      • xcorporation
                        Full Member

                        • Mar 2014
                        • 56

                        #101
                        Originally posted by Len C
                        Striking well explained in layman's terms through this post.
                        It reminded me how I battled to make ends meet in the sixties, what we as a family had to endure to survive.
                        At the same time it made us stronger and more determined.
                        The only difference being, we never endangered other peoples lives, damaged others' posessions and helped ourselves to things that did not belong to us.
                        Today, through some poor business decisions, I am still battling to stay afloat, but what we've got we worked hard for.
                        It seems there is no pride amongst the striking masses and they certainly do not respect their fellow men.
                        Ek kan altyd my forex vir jou aanbied; sal jou en jou familie help om wealth te maak.
                        Dan worry jy nie oor 9-5 besighede nie.

                        Comment

                        • PeterRich
                          New Member
                          • Jun 2010
                          • 9

                          #102
                          Originally posted by pmbguy
                          I like it because mindset/worldview/attitude has a role to play in this. Besides the direct issues of unions and the employers we have this culture of entitlement in SA. It’s not easy to change this psychology/attitude practically so it bears little in way of executionable/reasonable solutions and I guess that was what Adrian was picking up on.

                          At the one extreme we have this “It’s my right to have a job and I will fight no matter what for a better salary, I don’t care about the consequences” at the other end we have “I am lucky to have a job and I will work hard to earn a better salary ”.

                          If the second attitude was more prevalent we would not be in this situation in the first place. The first attitude has its own reasons and it may even be viewed as a normal response.
                          I have no choice but to agree with your comments, in the solutions are difficult or impossible to implement. Also understand. I am opposed to violence, but consider this
                          Beliefs/ attitude/mindset are the cause of all behaviour. The powers have and are still are taking a soft attitude towards all this bad behaviour, and it has only grown stronger and more disruptive over the years.
                          Problem solving means dealing with the cause, everything else is waste of time and energy. Currently we have too many people running about with visions of power. Is it too late? I don’t know.
                          Gone are the days where we could have used TV drama’s depicting the benefits of having a good attitude
                          What I do know. Unless some hard decisions are made to curtail this bad behaviour... and soon. We also need to communicate this on a level they can understand. We will no longer be considering if the decisions we are making are reasonable, in the not to distant future

                          Comment

                          • Trickzta
                            Email problem

                            • Feb 2013
                            • 462

                            #103
                            My 50cents worth of opinion.

                            The relinquishing of ‘minority rule’ and replacing it with ‘majority rule’ whilst excluding the transfer of financial rule, except to the chosen few, has led to our country having an enormous gap between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have nots’. We are highly ranked (top three) as a country with such a gap. A gap that keeps on growing wider.

                            As such, a situation is created that is ripe for further exploitation of the masses. While ulterior motives are behind this exploitation, the masses are led (misled) with promises and lies. This is called Politics.

                            A hungry, homeless and unemployed person will easily align with any movement making oft repeated promises to improve their lot in life. Promises of wealth and abundance made to the poor act as a flame does to a moth. The call to arms is presented as optional but manifests itself as mandatory. This is called Political Reform.

                            Once the masses are mobilized and armed, their leaders are coerced into committing acts of violence and further acts of sabotage. This is called Civil War.

                            Africa is rife with examples of this strategic model. AFRICON, umm AFRICOM is very active in Africa and more so by the day. Below are two snippets from an Anti-war group in the USA.
                            Africa has no choice between private capitalism and socialism. The whole world, including capitalist countries, is moving toward socialism, inevitably, inexorably. You can choose between blocs and military alliances, you can choose between political unions; you cannot choose between socialism and private capitalism because private capitalism is doomed!” (The World and Africa, p. 307)
                            Such wars could very well be carried out with greater determination in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, South Africa and Somalia which would be against the interests of the peoples of Africa and working and oppressed peoples throughout the world



                            This Exercise started on the same day that BRICS started their meeting at which the ratification of a new International Bank was ready to signed.
                            [/I]In addition to Soldiers from USARAF and the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, other participants include officers from the German Bundeswehr Geospacial Intelligence Division, civilian instructors from the British Peace Support Team -- Pretoria, and military personnel from Malawi, Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Namibia[/I]

                            Who is our choice, BRICS or AFRICOM?

                            I guess my take on the current and recent strikes is that they are/were largely politically motivated and driven by power hungry factions or individuals. This could explain the heavy handed pre-meditated massacring of striking miners. It could also explain the heavy handed manner in which that strike was organized (enforced).
                            The NUMSA strike was organized with power and politics being the driving force behind the scenes.

                            The curtailing and prevention of future strike action on a scale we’ve recently witnessed is a priority of National importance. The delivery of services to all sectors of society, the creation of sustainable employment and training of skilled workers are basic building blocks without which we will be hard pressed to avoid the emergence of a growing ‘political’ movement rising up to challenge the Status Quo.

                            I fully realize the contradictory nature of the goals and the methods employed to achieve these goals, I’m merely stating my opinion, based on what I perceive to be unfolding. The items in italics are cut and pasted.
                            Last edited by Trickzta; 31-Jul-14, 03:37 PM. Reason: attempt to reinstate italics
                            If the outcome of a vote is unknown then voting is tantamount to gambling. If the outcome of a vote is known, then voting is futile. Robert Rorschach.

                            Comment

                            • MrsVisser
                              New Member
                              • Jan 2014
                              • 1

                              #104
                              I think many posters have touched on many of the contributing factors to the current situation:

                              * Unions competing with one another for membership
                              * Union bosses lining their own pockets at the expense of the workers they're claiming to represent
                              * Crazy disparity between CEO salaries and workers' wages
                              * A lack of investment from both unions and companies in infrastructures and systems to uplift the communities and the workers

                              What amazes me is that no one has mentioned the government in all of this.
                              Why hasn't the government built decent schools and hospitals? Why hasn't the government provided decent housing for these people? What is the government doing to curb the constant rise of just the basic cost of living? If the government was doing its job, the workers wouldn't feel so helpless that they would fall for the unions' lies.
                              The government is failing the country in spectacular fashion.

                              Just my opinion.

                              Comment

                              • desA
                                Platinum Member

                                • Jan 2010
                                • 1023

                                #105
                                The ANC eats its way through SA's wealth, one day at a time. No time to help those who need help. Too busy helping themselves.
                                In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

                                Comment

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