Charge for serious disrespect

[SSS100]

An employee (truck driver) showed serious disrespect when talking to me on the phone
What charge do i put for hearing?

[Dave A]

Depends on the exact content of the "conversation". Charges I've seen that may be applicable are insubordination, gross insubordination, threatening a fellow employee, failure/refusal to comply with a legitimate instruction...

[dfsa]

Depends on the exact content of the "conversation". Charges I've seen that may be applicable are insubordination, gross insubordination, threatening a fellow employee, failure/refusal to comply with a legitimate instruction...

What Dave said and more: First you need to look at the following:
What is your position in the company?
Did you raise your voice when you conversed with him?
How long was he on the road when you spoke to him?
What if any instruction did you gave to him?
Is he reporting directly to you?
What time did you converse with him?
Has he received any previous warnings, verbal or written and for what offense?

[SSS100]

I'm the transport manager. My tone was low, i was informing him that i want him to come and do a delivery to a client
And he was not on the road, but home... i had given him time off and told him i will call him if i have a load to be done, no specific amount of time off or days was given as i was expecting an order from a client but did not know when the client will place it as client was not sure

So, instead of letting him stay in the truck for days (sleep in parking yard in truck) i thought rather send him home to rest in better enviroment and will call him when i need him
I actually called him on wednesday morning to advise of the delivery i wanted him to do on friday (i had given him time off from prev week on thursday)

And he does not have prev warnings or offences
Only thing i have since picked up from other drivers is that he is a very close friend of a driver that was fired a month back for causing a R 15,000 loss to the company
And they have been seeing eachother more in last days

[SSS100]

i think gross insubordination will work...but how do i put it?
gross insubordination in that you......(how do i put this)

this labour things are not easy at all

[georgevorster]

Be careful! Insubordination and disrespect are 2 totally different things, and as such must be treated differently.
Was the employee rude or insolent? Or did the employee refuse to carry out an legitimate instruction?
The manner in which the charges are formulated must ensure that the elements of the actual misconduct are identified and included in the charge.
Ultimately, these elements must be proven to secure a guilty finding.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

I am unsure has to what transpired once you called him.
Was he disrespectful but still do the delivery.
Or refused to do the delivery?
Key difference between insubordination and insolence
Insubordination - is the refusal to obey a reasonable demand
Insolence - cheeky, disrespectful, etc
Gross - refers to the level of insolence/insubordination. (This is where the issues of company position, manner of speaking, nature of task refused (and repercussions thereof), and such would be factored in to determine the severity of the offense.)
Importantly a guilty charge of gross could be dismissible on first offense, whereas a straight insolence/insubordination would not normally be dismissible at first offense.
If in doubt - charge with gross, you can always find guilty but not serious enough to warrant dismissal.

[SSS100]

thanks guys

i charged him with gross insubordination and gross insolence
he refused to do the delivery stating that he did most of that route before and other drivers did less of that route
but that was because those orders came while other trucks were out and he was available, otherwise no driver has a dedicated truck or route
i schedule as per truck and driver availability

i got an independed person to chair the hearing next week

i'm tired of this guy, how do u employ a driver and he wants to tell u how he wants to work?
this coutry is not business friendly at all

[Dave A]

i got an independed person to chair the hearing next week

Good move.

[SSS100]

thanks for all your inputs guys, much appreciated

[dfsa]

thanks guys

i charged him with gross insubordination and gross insolence
he refused to do the delivery stating that he did most of that route before and other drivers did less of that route
but that was because those orders came while other trucks were out and he was available, otherwise no driver has a dedicated truck or route
i schedule as per truck and driver availability

i got an independent person to chair the hearing next week

I'm tired of this guy, how do u employ a driver and he wants to tell u how he wants to work?
this country is not business friendly at all

Using a independent person is the correct way. Always ensure that the senior person if involved with the case, never do the hearing. IE: Supervisor, Manager,Foreman etc.

Ensure all procedures are followed to the point. The CCMA rule fast against you if there is any discrepency in followed procedures. ( Let me know, I have them somewhere on hard copy and will scan them if you do not have the standard procedure)

The Two charges are serious.

Insubordinate (Rebellious) behaviour. 1st Offense = Final Written Warning = 2nd offense = Dismissal
Insolence or Refusal to obey lawfully instructions or Insulting behaviour. 1st Offense = Final Warning. 2nd Offense = Dismissal
Refusal to work other than Procedural Strike. 1st Offense = Dismissal



I am not sure about the size of your company, but would suggest you nominate a person with a good general nature as the Appeal Chair person. This person can even override the MD of the company when he feel any disciplinary action was not fair. The person that received any disciplinary action against him, have the right to appeal against it to a higher authority in the company. (Normally keep the top management out of this as they might have vested interest in any action taken) The Appeal Chair person, then call for a new meeting and all parties involved in the original action must state their case and want transpired and why they decided on disciplinary action taken. The Appeal Chair person must be 100% look at both sides equally. Then without any interference from any party (Even the highest sitting director can be over ridden) he must make a fair decision if the disciplinary action stay or if it get reversed to a lesser action. Even if it mean that back payment need to be paid.

[SSS100]

Company is small, we have a operations controller and 2 directors...myself and a female collegue being directors

The a controller that does the scheduling and operations (we also help in the functions due to small structure)
The trick here is that we were all involved, the driver first spoke to the operations controller, then the female director and was lastly transfered to me
The person to chair has dealt with ccma matters before

Now, based on what u raised above, it brings one thing in mind?
Who will represent the company? All 3 people in management were involved in the matter

[dfsa]

Company is small, we have a operations controller and 2 directors...myself and a female collegue being directors

The a controller that does the scheduling and operations (we also help in the functions due to small structure)
The trick here is that we were all involved, the driver first spoke to the operations controller, then the female director and was lastly transfered to me
The person to chair has dealt with ccma matters before

Now, based on what u raised above, it brings one thing in mind?
Who will represent the company? All 3 people in management were involved in the matter

In this case, based on the size of your company, appointing an appeal Chair person will not be in your interest.

The thing here is, when the employee is found guilty, he must have the right to appeal. Following procedure, you can give him 5 or 10 working Days to submit his appeal. ( His full rights must be explained to him, otherwise he can have a field Day at CCMA) CCMA is actually not unfair, but they always try and look after the employee's interest first. They are goverment and must show they look out for the labor force.

S the employee's actions was directly to wards the directors and not just another employee or supervisor, his case is much more severe.

At the end it might all end up at CCMA, so I wouldn't want to give you advice from my experience and what I would do although I was at CCMA about 40 odd times and walked out with the cases thrown out. Only on 3 cases we had to cough up a little.

As long as you follow the procedures 100% then you should not have a problem.

Contact these guys, I used them for about 8 Years. They actually take all the load off you and you can spend your time on your business, not with people who do not want to work and think you owe them.

Cofesa Head Office
Tel (011) 679-4373
Fax (011) 679-4393
Email: info@cofesa.co.za
Physical address: Gable Office Estate, C/O Tennis & J.G. Strijdom Rd, Suite 9, Weltevredenpark, 1079


Phone them, they will explain everything to you. If you use one of their people to come and do the Meeting, it will cost you around R1500-00. The thing is they ensure you don't have a problem afterward. They can also represent you with a different person at CCMA if it come to that.

For future I am not sure what they would charge you for annual membership, but I used to pay R2000-00 per Year with a staff of 40. As far as I know they have some special price structure for companies with less than 10 People.

Give them a ring, at least they can give you more accurate advice with your urgent situation.

[SSS100]

Great, thanks a lot for the info
I will ring them on monday

Have a good one guys