BBBEE wrong

[Greig Whitton]

Finally we get to the truth. BEE is discrimination and should be challenged in court.

Absolutely. I genuinely believe that there is a strong case to be made for challenging the constitutionality of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, especially the new Codes that clearly and blatantly discriminate between black and non-black business owners to the extent that it is impossible for a white business owner to achieve the same B-BBEE rating (and, therefore, competitive parity) as a black business owner.

Per Section 9 (3) of the Constitution:

"The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth."

Now consider the following extract from the Preamble of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act that contextualises the purpose of this legislation (bold text my emphasis):

"AND WHEREAS, unless further steps are taken to increase the effective participation of the majority of South Africans in the economy, the stability and prosperity of the economy in the future may be undermined to the detriment of all South Africans, irrespective of race;

AND IN ORDER TO—

promote the achievement of the constitutional right to equality, increase broad-based and effective participation of black people in the economy and promote a higher growth rate, increased employment and more equitable income distribution; and
establish a national policy on broad-based black economic empowerment so as to promote the economic unity of the nation, protect the common market, and promote equal opportunity and equal access to government services."

Nothing in that Preamble, in my opinion, justifies the unfair discrimination introduced by the new Codes. In fact, the new Codes arguably fly in the face of the reasons for the introduction of B-BBEE in the first place as indicated by the Preamble elements that I highlighted:

(a) Protecting economic stability and prosperity for all South Africans irrespective of race;
(b) Promoting the Constitutional right to equality;
(c) Promoting economic unity;
(d) Protecting the common market; and
(e) Promoting equal opportunity and equal access to government services.

But who has the resources to take our government to the Constitutional Court? Anyone reading this post does! Last year, Mark Shuttleworth set up a R250 million trust to fund legal cases against the South African government and protect the constitutional rights of all South Africans.

If you are passionately opposed to B-BBEE and want to do something about it, here is your chance. Reach out to Mark Shuttleworth's trust and apply for assistance.

[Justloadit]

Companies will need to prove that they are "empowering suppliers" (e.g. that they source locally) when they are independently certified by their auditor or verification agency. If they can't produce independently verifiable evidence, then they won't earn their points.

Theoretically this sounds as if it is going to work, but in practice, who knows

[Blurock]

I believe that people can only be empowered by knowledge. You cannot empower people by giving them grants and jobs that they cannot do. (refer Eskom, Post office, SAA, SABC etc etc and Government in general) People can be only uplifted by training and teaching them so that they can acquire skills that can be sold on the labour market.

There is a shortage of skilled people in this country, so why are so many young people still sitting on their arses and doing nothing? Everyone is waiting on a handout from government. The money will not last. The cANCer has just about emptied the coffers. The honeymoon is now over, as predicted by Moeletsi Mbeki: Architects of Poverty: Why African Capitalism Needs Changing, Central Books, April 2009; Advocates for change: How to overcome Africa's challenges, Picador Africa, 2011.

[SSS100]

Interesting to see what people think about certain things and other people in the country

[Blurock]

As factories close, we lose the skills of qualified technicians and engineers. Who will the teach our children when they are all gone? Where will they find employment? Who will drive innovation and create new products? We cannot just import everything that we want, we have to manufacture it ourselves. There are products that cannot be economically manufactured locally, but we should be careful not to just run to the importer if we want something. Importers do not create jobs or skills.

Our manufacturing sector can address many social skills by employing more people and training them as engineers and technicians. We have the people, we now have to create a learning culture and the will to work. Government can play a big role by incentivising the manufacturing sector.
Why do we export raw materials and not the added value of a finished product which can turn our whole economy around?

[SSS100]

Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same

Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid ... but they ALL went to better schools than black people, ALL had access to better health care and systems as a result of Apartheid then now claim they did NOT benefit from it

[Blurock]

Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same

Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid ... but they ALL went to better schools than black people, ALL had access to better health care and systems as a result of Apartheid then now claim they did NOT benefit from it

Please, we do not need your racist remarks. Please read my post again and notice the facts that you are missing. We do not create wealth by opportunist and populist political agendas, but by sharing knowledge and by training people with skills so that they can fend for themselves.

Everyone is looking for a job, but a job is a pick and a shovel. Aim a little higher and acquire a skill that will give you the power to negotiate a better wage and a better life for your family. It is time that we look past our differences and look at how we can all work together as SOUTH AFRICANS to make this country great again. I am sure that we all want peace and prosperity so that our children can inherit a country that can stand proud in the international arena. Not only our sporting heroes, but also heroes in business and in our our communities must stand together.

[SSS100]

Please, we do not need your racist remarks. Please read my post again and notice the facts that you are missing. We do not create wealth by opportunist and populist political agendas, but by sharing knowledge and by training people with skills so that they can fend for themselves.

Everyone is looking for a job, but a job is a pick and a shovel. Aim a little higher and acquire a skill that will give you the power to negotiate a better wage and a better life for your family. It is time that we look past our differences and look at how we can all work together as SOUTH AFRICANS to make this country great again. I am sure that we all want peace and prosperity so that our children can inherit a country that can stand proud in the international arena. Not only our sporting heroes, but also heroes in business and in our our communities must stand together.

Read all the discriminating and degrading posts made by all the white people about transformation and black people and BBBEE which is needed to adddress the cruel injustice of the past in this country before you tell me of making racism remarks

Start from beginning of the posts then you shall see MR Clever

[Dave A]

Interesting to see what people think about certain things and other people in the country

Exposing and debating these differences in thinking is rather the point of this forum website.

Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same

It's a long thread. Would you care to quote a couple of posts in support of that assertion.

Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid

Oh I don't deny that at all. I'm of an age where being born white in South Africa was undeniably advantageous to my education and economic opportunities in the apartheid era.
Do you judge me on that alone? Or is what I chose to do with those advantages what really counts when you judge me?

[SSS100]

Thanks Dave for being open and honest to acknowledge that you benefited from the Apartheid regime... many white people still want to shy away from that fact and that's just stupid and coward behaviour... you are one of the FEW brave ones needed to re-build this country

White people need to differentiate from the corrupt politicians and many honest hard working black people that needs to be given chances and included in the economy.

The economy can not continue to benefit just a few white people and as a black person I will NOT be apologetic for insisting that black people be given opportunities because for many years as black people we have been isolated from the main stream economy and as a result we are not economically at par with the minority in the country .. the whites.. FACT

Those white people who do not want transformation can leave ... Australia will fast track your immigration !!!!

[Blurock]

Read all the discriminating and degrading posts made by all the white people about transformation and black people and BBBEE which is needed to adddress the cruel injustice of the past in this country before you tell me of making racism remarks

Start from beginning of the posts then you shall see MR Clever

Living in the past is not going to ensure a bright future for your or my children. Taking hands and working together to build a country where ALL South Africans can benefit is what we need. We need a shared patriosim and a vision of a country where everyone is equal and treated fairly.
I sadly do acknowlege that there are racists amongst us, but I also realise that there are black and white racists, that is why I immediately get my back up when race is mentioned (all races). Every time that we fall into that negative trap of pointing fingers, we destroy the little bit of goodwill that still bind us together.
Most white people voted for change because we saw that apartheid was wrong. Not all of us benefitted from apartheid as is generally believed. I was orphaned at 10 and the boarding school was my home until I left school. Yes, I was privileged to attend a good school, but I could not afford to go to university. I studied part time and worked hard to make a living. I was awarded an MBA at age 50 and I am still studying. I regard myself as fairly succesful, so why should I be ashamed of who I am?
I can understand that people are hurt because of injustices and many things that have gone wrong. Some show their anger in violent demonstrations such as the burning of trucks on the N3 this weekend. There are however, those who rise above their circumstances to become leaders and pillars of hope in their communities and in their country. Let us be builders rather than breakers.

[Blurock]

"The bill will lead to even more resources being made available to relatively less competent entrepreneurs -- black, coloured, Indian and white -- those entrepreneurs who would not make the grade without government assistance."

This meant fewer consumer goods would be available to all South Africans. The cost of the project would fall on ordinary consumers, who would have to pay more for basic goods.

Le Roux said it was important to remember it was not just "less competent" black entrepreneurs who benefit from artificial investment, but also whites.

"White entrepreneurs who would not have made it in the market, but who somehow managed to get a black, coloured or Indian BEE partner, are being kept in business at the expense of consumers," he said.

Just to put everything in perspective; this is where the thread has started. Although there are many whites who resist change due to their fears or insecurities, I have to agree with Wynn's statement which also reflects my view of BBBEE. I see it as a licence for corruption and a free ticket for the politically connected.

I fully support transformation and in our business we are training (black) youngsters with skills to enable them to negotiate a better wage and a better living. They are now able to apply elsewhere, should they not be happy with their pay or working conditions.There are those who are "too old to learn" or some other excuse, but at least they have the option to decide for themselves.

We have started the business with a 51% black partner, but he was a gentleman and although a business school graduate, he decided that he was not the right person for the job. What is the use of "empowering" one man if he does not have the technical skills and aptitude to carry on with the business after the founders retire or leave? Is it not better to transfer the skills to more capable youngsters who are willing to learn and who have the the right attitude and hunger for the business? That is what I call empowererment and real freedom. The right to choose where you want to work and to be able to negotiate is real freedom. Not the kind of freedom that is sold by politicians. I have yet to meet any politician that can be trusted.

[SSS100]

Yes, transformation should not be about few politically connected or "one-man" as a BBEEE partner, it is way more than that

Mama Winnie did not suffer for " few" to benefit from the freedom but ALL "our people" as she always referred to the people

Let us honour her and the sacrifices she made .. the good cause

Rest In Peam Mama Winnie

[Blurock]

Transformation

What do we understand under transformation? I think 90% of South Africans have no clue what the word means and our government certainly have no clue on how to implement it.

The recent debacle of forced racist quotas in sports and in particular in school sports has again opened a can of worms which is driving people into racist camps. This leads to emotional outbursts without thinking rationally, such as that Sija Kolisi, our springbok captain is a sell-out and has to be neclaced! Imagine.

The government should not worry about the racial make-up of our national sides, but rather focus on giving as many children as possible the opportunity to play sport. Too many children are playing their sports in township streets or an open veld with not a blade of grass. The ANC has had 25 years to start building facilities where school children can play, train and practice their sport. Why have they done nothing for our children?! A skill in sport is not acquired at 18 or 20, after you have left school, but at junior level. It takes 10 years to become a master or expert at what you do. That is why Bafana Bafana is such a hopelessly dismal team. You cannot expect to kick a ball around on a barren, grassless field and then become a world class player.
Look at our black sports stars. All of them went to decent schools with decent sports facilities. Yes the Makaya Ntini's, Kolisi's and others have been discovered in rural areas, but they were given an opportunity which they took and built on to become sports heroes. Had these same guys be left in the rural area and only entered their teams as quota players, they would not have done so well. On the contrary, there would always be the stigma of "quota player", which would also have a psychological impact making them feel inferior to their peers.

Imagine what impact it may have on an unsecure youngster to be included in the school team as a quota player. I am so glad that this stupid announcement was scrapped for school children. Rather build facilities where everyone can have an equal opportunity to excell and be the best that they can be. That is true transformation!

[Blurock]

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/ar...mmission-2019-

The BBBEE Commission reported on Thursday that no significant changes happened in the levels of transformation during 2018, with black ownership reflecting a decline to 25.2% last year, from 27% in 2017, and management control still sitting at 38% for black persons. According to them this “worrying trend of noncompliance is . . . undermining the objectives of the BBBEE Act.” Black women ownership stood at only 10.1%.
The Commission said in a statement that by including BBBEE as an audit requirement and the enforcement action of the commission, reporting and the extent of BBBEE implementation was expected to improve.

Have we become an authoritarian state where government decides for you who can do business and who not? Whatever happened to free trade?
By enforcing quotas in our businesses, government is harming business to such an extent that businesses are closing and capital is flowing out of the country. This is obviously not good for job creation. Quotas have the disadvantage that it will exclude competent people while including less competent people just for the sake of ticking the boxes. Expecting 50% of employees to be female is wrong, as females may not be interested in that particular job. The converse applies where males may not choose a particular job. To fill the quotas, less interested or qualified people gets appointed.

Instead of BEE which is not working, encourage employers to train and upskill employees so that they are able negotiate sustainable employment and to sell their skills to the highest bidder. Skilled people become entrepreneurs who create employment and wealth. They will become the managers and leaders of the future. We need leaders with skills, not selected BEE political cronies who are there only for the money.

We have to grow our economy to create employment, but that can only happen in a free trading environment where businesses are given the flexibility to decide what is good for their future. It is interesting to note that in the USA where people hire and fire (not my favourite), the unemployment rate is 3%. In SA where government and unions force employers to keep underperforming staff, the unemployment rate is 26!