standby generators

[murdock]

how many people out there have generators installed and are not sure if they are in fact connected correctly according to the sans regulations....well i am sure there are many...

this is the reason like witnessing crime i prefer not to get involved...i get called out to a site were a homeower who has a 2 year old child want to know if the generator installation is safe...so i go to site have a look and find these problems
no earth leakage on the plug circuits connected to the generator
no mechanical interlock
relays underated for the size breaker protecting the circuit
no barrier between the generator supply and the normal supply
generator is installed below the kitchen window outside
panels are not weatherproof mountwed outside
no earth spike...and more

and these were just a few of the items i notice while doing a visual inspection...but on hearing the electrical contractor had not yet issued the COC i decided to rather walk away from the job until the electrical contractor has issued the COC...because i have learnt from experience no matter how many YEARS it takes the electrical contractor to issue the COC the job is not finished ...my main concern was the fact the plugs were not connected to earth leakage unit...so i informed the customer of this and left...i then got a call from the husband who seemed concerned...so i advised him of the situation and said there was nothing he could do until the COC was issued and that i did not want to get involved until it was done...10 minutes later i get a call from the electrical contractor wanting to know who the hell i thought i was going onto his site and telling the customer that his installation was unsafe...well as far as i am concerned not having plugs on earth leakage with a 2 year old crawling around is like leaving a loaded firearm lying around with teenagers...anyway it comes out that he is not finished with the installation yet... as i expected he would say...apparently he explained the situation to the owner that there is no stock of the earth leakage units which he required...so in the meantime if the 2 year old is electricuted who is going to be at fault the supplier of the earth leagage unit? the electrical contractor? the parents?

[murdock]

be extremely careful with generators...make sure your installation is done correctly...if a generator is not installed correctly not only can it electrucute you to death no matter how small the unit is...the fumes can kill you...an example of a bad installation...dont put the generator in the garage and close the door while it is running...sound stupid...well people are doing this...suicide cords are a reality plug top to plug top...in the generator and straight into the wall socket...i know the fella at makro springfield is advising people of this quick fix...it makes the entire grid unsafe not only for the homeower but also us suckers who have to work on the lines...feed back into the system.

[Dave A]

Murdock, I have to agree with you on the earth leakage protection issue in particular. It is definitely worth stressing. Having a generator supply without earth leakage protection is like leaving a loaded gun around the house.

I was thinking through the hazards of generators a while back, and they have got to be one of the most dangerous machines around.

• You have the flamable hazard of the fuel.
• You have the burn hazard of the hot exhaust.
• You have the toxic gases hazard of the exhaust fumes.
• You have the electrocution hazard of the electrical supply.

Coming from the pest control industry, I used to think that what we work with is dangerous. With a few exceptions, I believe electrical generators are far more hazardous.

[duncan drennan]

Can we look at a particular case quickly (my case that is...):

If the power goes out (which it generally does not), I unplug my UPS from the house plugs, start the generator and plug the UPS into the generator (which is running happily in outside in a well ventilated area). There are no earth connections.

What else do I need to make this set up safe?

[murdock]

so what you are telling us is that everything you plug in is double insulated so there is no chance of any exposed metal parts becoming alive when the is afault or you have a safety transformer...like a shaver unit in a bathroom.

[duncan drennan]

Well, no, I can't say that it is. Most of it is, but the UPS for one has a metal case, which would mean that it is not double insulated. Obviously any PC (I normally use a laptop though) isn't either.

I can see how this presents some kind of a problem. Any fault to the casing would then expose live to the user.

But, is it a danger? In this case the generator is also effectively floating (compared to earth). Even if the user is earthed, there is no closed loop for the current to flow in - or am I totally wrong?

[Dave A]

I think if you're serious about electrical safety in a stand-alone generator situation:

• Earth the generator properly with an earth spike or to a metal water pipe that goes into the ground.
• Bridge the earth and neutral.
• Have an earth leakage unit in after the bridge.

[duncan drennan]

Once that is in place, what is a safe (but effective) method to test whether the earth leakage is working properly?

[murdock]

an earth spike is a regulation you have to install an earth spike at the generator.
you have to connect the neutral and earth at the generator but no else in the installation.
and use an earth leakage tester they are not expensive...in fact i am considerering buying all my customers an earth leakage tester so they can test a plug with it before they call me... because it has indicator lights on it...for reverse polarity...no neutral...no earth...etc...and if you have small children it is got practise just to trip the e/l unit evey now and again just to makes sure it is working within the spec around 20-25 mA

[IanF]

a
and use an earth leakage tester they are not expensive...in fact i am considerering buying all my customers an earth leakage tester

Murdock
Can you give us name and specs of the tester it sounds like a good buy, also what is the price range this is for me who just knows electricity is dangerous.

[murdock]

i know of 2 makes top tronic model number tel1tlp list price is R220.00 my personal choice...then you get a major tech mt 310 i dont know the price...personal i dont buy anything from major tech there service sucks their products are unreliable and as for their sales department you would think they were doing you a favour selling you their product.

[Upstairs]

Hi Murdock,
I know the senior boys at Major Tech, and I am sure that they would not appreciate the treatment that you have received from their staff. Keep in mind that they do not sell directly to the public, but it gives them no right to treat a customer the way I suspect they have treated you. I worked for Kraus and Naimer switchgear (SA Solenoid Co) for ten years, and learned there that the small customer is as important as the man with the bigger wallet. There is always the possibility that the small guy may grow to become the big guy. I shall direct them to this forum and would like some feedback as to how they handled your gripe. On the other hand do not expect a top quality multimeter for around R200. Rather spend more and have peace of mind. Regards. Rudi

[Alan]

Major Tech....mmmm

This thread has taken an interesting turn and in all honesty i don't want to climb onto the proverbial band wagon. At the end of the day my experience's with Major Tech has been nothing less than disgusting.
Here is the story:
A few years ago new models of the Major Tech range of meters were brought out with life time guarantee or warranty i forget which, anyway after investigating these meters fairly throughly, as they did come at a premium we decide to invest in about 4 or 5 different units. After being assured by sales staff that no matter what went wrong, all we had to do was bring the meter in and it would be repaired or replaced. During our investigation of these meters we were assured that amount other features they were fully fuse protected and this is important as electricians, staff, myself included have tested a live circuit with the ohm scale. This is a mistake that is fairly easy to make when under pressure on a fault find. Now when this happens and the meter is fuse protected all that should happen is you pop the fuse before you burn out the meter, no problem........wrong.
Again i digress, i have an old Fluke 77 meter from the 80's [my personal meter] that really has been through the mill and have had this meter since my apprenticeships, when making a mistake like this it has a built in resistor that allows for this mishap and no harm comes to meter or operator.
Anyway it was inevitable that this would happen on one of our meters and it did a few months after purchase when testing between neutral and earth and the neutral was carrying a 100 odd volts.....bang the fuse went, no problem get a new fuse......big problem no stock of these fuses in KZN.
To cut a long story short this happened on 2 separate occasions to 2 different meters and both times the meter itself was damaged. When i phoned the distributors in KZN i was told that the fuse was purely to protect the operator and not the meter, when i questioned this as i don't have to replace my car when a fuse blows. Now as a sparky i have always been under the impression that a fuse is there to protect a circuit from overload but according to Major Tech in KZN i didn't know what i was talking about and the life time warranty/guarantee didn't apply and there was nothing i was going to be able to do about it they did however offer to sell me new meters. On both occasions we blew our Insulation Testers
IMO at the end of the day that guarantee/warranty was not worth the paper it was written on and was a pure sales gimmick. Only problem is, you will only catch me once, thereafter my school fees have been paid.

As far as safety in generator installation goes the small number of folk that read these forums are lucky as they can consider themselves fairly informed, but there are literally thousands of folk out there playing Russian Roulette and don't even know it.

[Alan]

Well, things do seem to go around full circle and issues do get resolved in the end, after making the above post Major Tech got in touch with me and am pleased to report that the issue has been resolved and the meter replaced. Please note that it was not my intention to force Major Tech's hand in any way and was not the reason for the above post. Thank you to Wayne for the response and i am once again assured that Major Tech does take their customer complaints seriously.