VIR and the ECASA

[skatingsparks]

Opinion

Have a client who recently bought a property in Cape Town from the late 1940's/early 50's - complete with CoC.

After moving in they find good old VIR and electrician they bought in to do the new work says he won't touch it (I wouldn't either) and they ask my opinion.

I saw pictures where the old slip conduit had rusted through and had come apart, porcelain connectors to extend the VIR to sockets (which to me means the VIR has crapped out).

I'm of the opinion that VIR is past its serviable life, even if pasts the tests (unlikely)

Advised client to goto ECASA to see if the electrician was one of theres, failing that - AIA.

After sending pictures to ECA they stood by their members decision say we test to the standard at the time.

The conduit is shot and the VIR at the sockets had to be extended as the VIR had failed at the switches on sockets but the ECA are Ok with that.

Me, I'm cancelling my ECA membership because if that "standard for the industry" then I ain't interested in paying 2 grand a year to that.

Client considering AIA

What do you guys think - should there just a cut off nwo where we say no more VIR.

[Tradie]

I am going to say it again and again, do not sign the sale agreement until you are happy with everything on the property.

In this case you could have advised the customer to request the VIR wiring is replaced or reduce the price to allow for it to be replaced. To replace that wiring will cost upward of R50 000, something to consider when purchasing a property.

Last week I was called out to a property for an ELU tripping, imagine that the wiring is VIR. I removed one of the switches and no surprise there was a loud bang, the quick fix, sleeve the wire where the insulation is damaged or replace the wiring, the budget doesn't allow for a rewire.

I have personally witnessed a fire start in a steel conduit. you have to be so careful not to bend or pull the wires, which is literally impossible when removing a switch or socket outlet.

So yes I agree 100 % that VIR should be discontinued, and the only way to make it happen is to get insurance companies on board.

If you insurance company understands the risk, they will certainly make sure they cover themselves

[Tradie]

Just remember they test to the standard at the time, the installation still has to be compliant.

If anything is damage or the old steel conduit is rusted, it would make the installation non compliant.

If there have been any modification or upgrades to the installation since the date of install, then the new regulations at the time of the upgrade would apply, cabling extended, new extension boxes, switches and socket outlets fitted.

If it still has the old round 5 amp socket outlets and brass switches and lights, then the old regulations would apply.

There would be a very fine line between old and upgraded, sleeving an old VIR wire, would be improving the installation, however fitting a ferrule with a new wire would be an upgrade.

[GCE]

There have been previous discussions around VIR - Never understood why they have not just brought out a note in SANS that it is not allowed too be passed even if it tests out ok

My take is still the same - It should not be allowed as it is past it's original specified age of 25 year lifespan and manufacturing of VIR was stopped around 1960

Some previous threads

https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/showthread.php/28594-VIR-cables-in-old-buildings

[Tradie]

I see it with DB upgrades, people replace the old flush fuse box with a new surface DB, extend the wires and say the old regs apply.

Another favorite, people removing an old round 5 socket outlet, fitting a PVC extension box with a new PVC 15 amp socket outlets and only connect the 2 wires to the new socket outlet (no earth), they say the old regulations apply. Actually you have now, not only created a non compliant installtiion, but a dangerous installation.

[skatingsparks]

Problem is the client is 60 year who bought in Cape Town- they just don't know. Socket covers look new(ish) so it's only when they started to refurb they find the problems.

My point is - the ECASA say it's fine because he tested to the standards at the time.

It's still past it's serviceable life. The VIR had deteriorated to the point where they extended the VIR with PVC (because it had failed) - so that's failed, to me. Old slip conduit rusted.

To me the ECASA is a standard. The stoke by the member who had signed off unsafe wiring in my opinion. ECASA is supposed to improve the standard in the industry. That's why I pay them - to give client the reassurance we are part of something like that

But if that's acceptable standards them I ain't paying in 2 grand a year and cancelling.

ECB is half the price and I only use them for electronic COC's

[Tradie]

The only person who could make the decision, is the chief inspector and a document updating the regs would be required, or if the insurance companies understand the fire risk, they would jump on the opportunity to put a clause in your policy which would not cover your house for a fire related to VIR wiring.

There have been previous discussions around VIR - Never understood why they have not just brought out a note in SANS that it is not allowed too be passed even if it tests out ok

My take is still the same - It should not be allowed as it is past it's original specified age of 25 year lifespan and manufacturing of VIR was stopped around 1960

Some previous threads

https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/...-old-buildings

[skatingsparks]

There have been previous discussions around VIR - Never understood why they have not just brought out a note in SANS that it is not allowed too be passed even if it tests out ok

My take is still the same - It should not be allowed as it is past it's original specified age of 25 year lifespan and manufacturing of VIR was stopped around 1960

Some previous threads

https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/...-old-buildings

Exactly this - passed serviceable life.
In the Sans 10142 - fundamental requirements mentions manufactures.
Even Alvern and Southern cable say service life is 25-30 years on modern cables

Just think it's crap if ECASA (setting the standard) saying it's OK. Not just the VIR but the extended VIR and the rusted through conduits. No way can this be considered compliant or, more importantly, safe.

[Tradie]

Reasons why not to buy a house with VIR (cloth) wiring, even if it passes every standard.

1/ The old steel conduit (16mm and sometimes split, which is no longer compliant) is smaller than standard PVC conduit.

2/ It is extremely difficult to rewire a property with VIR wiring, which makes it the most expensive projects.

3/ Chances are there a TEE pieces and no junction boxes.

4/ The wire could be older than 50 years.

5/ When you attempt to remove a switch or socket, chances are pretty good that it will cause a dead short between the steel conduit and wire, this is very common (it happened on Friday last week when I removed a light switch)

6/ Earth continuity could become a problem as the conduit rusts, very few old VIR installations have earth wires.

There so many reasons why you shouldn't buy a house with VIR wiring.

[Tradie]

"It has been tested to the regulations at the time of installation"

What are the chance that the person doing the test report is old enough to know the regulations from 50 years or even if they are old enough, what are the chances that they would have a copy of the regulations from back then?

[Tradie]

This is why it is important to check behind a surface mounted DB, it may look all new and rewired.

Spot the code violations.

[Thys LOW Elektries]

Funny, or rather strangely enough, South Africa might be the only country in the world that don't have a problem with VIR wiring. Not sure why, though?
A quick search on the Internet will show that Australia the UK, and a few other countries recommend that your house be inspected for VIR wiring and have it replaced ASAP to avoid a fire or electrocution.
Hereby us we have several old houses with asbestos insulation on the ceiling, steel pipes, and VIR wiring. Meggaring the wires gives you a quick indication that something is seriously wrong and the wiring needs to be replaced, but owners and estate agents don't care for the readings you get; they just want a COC.
Some R500.00 a COC electrician will eventually sign the house of as save and everybody is happy, till they have to phone you to fix the crap that is going on in the ceiling.

Stay safe

[Tradie]

We live in a 3rd world country.

The owner and the estate agent dont take responsibility for the electrical installation, the owner has no interest in spending money to fix it and the estate agents just wants their cut.

That is why I am going to say it again and again and again and again and again, if you are stupid enough to buy a house, which could be the biggest investment you will make in your life, without checking the property yourself then you must make sure you have the extra cash to rewire once the sale agreement has been signed. 95 % of non compliant electrical installations purchased are either left as is, or the buyer pays to make the elctrical installation complaint.

Let this be a warning, I have paid hectic school fees ... When the customer chooses not to correct the non compliant installation, best you dont work on that installation because the day you fit one socket outlet, you become liable for the entire non compliant installation. When the property is sold the customer will hold you accountable for not fixing all the non compliant items, I am sure many of you reading this have these stories.

Don't think an email listing all the non compliant items will help, people forget faster than you can say non compliant When you forward the email reminding them, it just makes it worse.

Funny, or rather strangely enough, South Africa might be the only country in the world that don't have a problem with VIR wiring. Not sure why, though?
A quick search on the Internet will show that Australia the UK, and a few other countries recommend that your house be inspected for VIR wiring and have it replaced ASAP to avoid a fire or electrocution.
Hereby us we have several old houses with asbestos insulation on the ceiling, steel pipes, and VIR wiring. Meggaring the wires gives you a quick indication that something is seriously wrong and the wiring needs to be replaced, but owners and estate agents don't care for the readings you get; they just want a COC.
Some R500.00 a COC electrician will eventually sign the house of as save and everybody is happy, till they have to phone you to fix the crap that is going on in the ceiling.

Stay safe

[Dave A]

Funny, or rather strangely enough, South Africa might be the only country in the world that don't have a problem with VIR wiring. Not sure why, though?

To my mind the start of the rot is the perspective that if it was compliant on the date of installation, it is still compliant today if there has been no alteration. (To that particular part of the installation?)

In some parts of the world, if you issue a COC today, the installation must be to today's standard.
And I really believe that is the way it should be.

[AndyD]

I agree with Dave about regs not being retrospective indefinately as long as there's no alteration is crap. Ideally all new regs would apply to all installations immediately but realistically it's not possible to impliment or execute. I think maybe some middle ground might be workable where new regs become retrospective across the board a certain number of years after they're published