Solar challenges

[Isetech]

Doing normal electrical work on sites which have solar installations.

Our standard requirement is copy of all COC's for the site, before we step foot on the site and that people is where the fights normally start.

How do you deal with the non compliant COC's on properties where customers want you to take over the electrical and maintenance on the property ?

Without even looking at the COC, you can already identify a list of visible non compliant issues.

Lets say you have a 5 kw inverter and a 35 or 40 amp supply breaker, the way I see it due to the pass through current using a 2.5 mm 4 core surfix for the input and output would automatically be a code violation.

The same with the 8 kw inverter with a passthrough current of 50 amps, with an anything form a 50-63 amp mcb supplying the inverter input, a 6 mm 4 core surfix just wouldn't cut it. We can go into details about the thin single earth wire another time.

The solar COC is added to the original COC, which is great, but, how do you add a COC to the original if you modify all the DB's to essential and non essential?

If the solar installer modifies every DB on the property, surely the solar COC/test report becomes the original and the original is no longer valid?

If you look at the top of the test report, it clearly states "" Test report for DB/ supply" so if you modify the DB in any way the original test report for that DB is no longer valid?

You would have to carry out a full test report once the DB is upgraded.

[Isetech]

By the way, as we all know, the minute you touch any part of that elctrical, you become liable for everything that is or was wrong with the installation.

It is different if you add a solar system and new Sub DB's which the essential/inverter output is not located in or connected in the main DB.

[Sparks]

Exactly. Nobody looks at what the pass-through current is, let alone make provision for it.

[Isetech]

Electricians cant even tell the difference between a PZ and PH screwdriver or a standard mcb vs a D curve and you expect them to understand passthrough current?

It could explain why green card holders (with a whole 3-5 days worth of training) are the preferred solar installers.

Exactly. Nobody looks at what the pass-through current is, let alone make provision for it.

[GCE]

Exactly. Nobody looks at what the pass-through current is, let alone make provision for it.

I don't quite understand what provision you talk about with regards to pass through current

[Sparks]

I don't quite understand what provision you talk about with regards to pass through current

Using correctly rated breakers and cables instead of underrated breakers and cables would be taking precaution and making provision. I am currently redoing new installations, done by a green card holder brought from COCT to the Eastern Cape by the developer of a new residential complex. The electrical contractor has very limited knowledge of SANS, to the extent that an ECA official has abused his position and made ridiculous demands for changes to the installation which are not dictated by SANS. I have been contracted by the contractor to "rectify" the "faults", but have informed him which items are not in contravention. As long as he keeps paying me, I will do as he asks, albeit unnecessary.

[GCE]

Using correctly rated breakers and cables instead of underrated breakers and cables would be taking precaution and making provision. .

Pass through current is in my opinion not a rating that should be taken into account for normal operation of the inverter .
CB should be rated at the load that is intended to used under normal conditions and the wire size would follow.

What we are seeing is guys installing 5kw inverters along with a 5KWH battery and then all protection is based on the pass through current of a 10kw system.As soon as there is a dip in power/loss of power/loadshedding the inverter and battery are trying to pick up the pass through current and you end up with a low DC voltage fault which indicates that the actual inverter was overloaded

We are also seeing all socket outlets and light circuits in a domestic dwelling running off the inverter and the kitchen has a dishwasher , wash machine, kettle , dishwasher etc and the worst is when they include the geyser and stove.

Owners are then told to make sure that they don't use to many appliances at the same time which in my opinion contravenes Clause 7.12.2.4

The battery warranty is gone because the warranty terms state that on average the battery should only discharge at 0.5c even though spec says 1c and more than 3 overloads voids warranty

An inverter is a generator not an appliance - We would never load a generator at 100% load and expect it to last .

Then we also have clause 5.5.2 and 5.3.1 with reference to Annex c which stipulates sizing of power requirements for socket outlets



SANS 10142-1 ed3.1
7.12.2.4 Where the alternative supply is intended to provide a supply to an
installation that is not connected to the main supply, or to provide a supply as
a switched alternative to the main supply, the capacity and operating
characteristics of the alternative supply shall be such that danger or damage
to equipment does not arise after the connection or disconnection of any
intended load as a result of the deviation of the voltage or frequency from the
standard range. Means shall be provided to automatically disconnect such
parts of the installation, as may be necessary if the capacity of the alternative
supply is exceeded

5.5.2 Harmful effects by electrical equipment
Electrical equipment shall be so designed and arranged that any damage as
a result of a fault be localized as much as possible. The equipment shall not
have harmful effects on other equipment or on the power supply during normal
service (including switching operations). Factors that can lead to harmful
effects include
a) the power factor,
b) inrush current,
c) asymmetrical load, and
d) harmonics

5.3.1 Estimated load
The load of an installation shall be estimated to determine the type and
capacity of the required electricity supply.
NOTE 1 Annex C gives an example of estimating the load for residential installations
but the method is not to be regarded as an exact method.
NOTE 2 The supplier may have special requirements for large installations and for
installations that need special consideration.

[GCE]

to the extent that an ECA official has abused his position and made ridiculous demands for changes to the installation which are not dictated by SANS. I have been contracted by the contractor to "rectify" the "faults", but have informed him which items are not in contravention. .

Would be interested to know what the demands where made and what you deem not be in contravention

[Sparks]

Would be interested to know what the demands where made and what you deem not be in contravention

He gave a whole list. No bridges in the DB smaller than 16mm. 2.5mm cable may not be protected by 25A CB. The motivation was that the socket outlet is only rated at 16A, yet it was insisted on that 20A CBs' be used. Cables in the roof had to have pieces of conduit secured to all the trusses to protect cables where they went over them, despite such occurrences not being where anyone would normally walk in the roofspace thus, no undue exposure to damage. A number of similar demands were made which my poor memory does not recall offhand. I concentrated more on just doing what was asked and I was being paid for.

[skatingsparks]

This the thing with the CoC story. You can't MAKE someone pay for a CoC.
Or MAKE them pay for work to make it compliant.

Yet if I'm the last one to touch a DB it's my fault ����.

Still not entirely sure where we stand.
We did a 12kw Sunsynk install on a, I'd guess, R6000000 house.

There was a CoC, which didn't look bad and we did a few basic tests before starting (Earth fault loop, visual checks etc)

Install was done over 3 days, commissioned - no worries.
Start doing proper testing and find a shit show (no earth readings etc). Then twist and tape special hidden.
Spent another 3 days fixing bits and pieces to get it to point where is could be signed off but eventually enough was enough.

Gave the customer a report on what we had done and other things that needed attention but they weren't interested (in paying for additional works needed) and we refused to issue the CoC.

They still paid for the solar install but they don't have a CoC from us. Like I said - can only advise, can't make them have the work done.

[Sparks]

This the thing with the CoC story. You can't MAKE someone pay for a CoC.
Or MAKE them pay for work to make it compliant.

Yet if I'm the last one to touch a DB it's my fault ����.

Still not entirely sure where we stand.
We did a 12kw Sunsynk install on a, I'd guess, R6000000 house.

There was a CoC, which didn't look bad and we did a few basic tests before starting (Earth fault loop, visual checks etc)

Install was done over 3 days, commissioned - no worries.
Start doing proper testing and find a shit show (no earth readings etc). Then twist and tape special hidden.
Spent another 3 days fixing bits and pieces to get it to point where is could be signed off but eventually enough was enough.

Gave the customer a report on what we had done and other things that needed attention but they weren't interested (in paying for additional works needed) and we refused to issue the CoC.

They still paid for the solar install but they don't have a CoC from us. Like I said - can only advise, can't make them have the work done.

I am disgusted by the fact that people are being charged for a COC for new work. A COC cost a few rand. The contractor is already being paid to do the work to spec, he is obligated by SANS to certify his work, that it is in accordance with SANS requirements. Why must the client pay for the COC. The contractor is contracted and paid to do the job as per SANS. Should a contractor be contracted to certify an existing installation it is another story. I consider him then to be entitled to charge for his time and knowledge accordingly but, the actual COC? That is ridiculous, a total abuse of power to milk the client in my opinion.

[Derlyn]

@ Sparks

100% Correct. I agree. Why not issue a COC for the inverter install only ?


The COC according to the definition, does not need to cover the whole installation.

3.9. Certificate of Compliance (coc)
Certificate that is issued by a registered person in respect of an electrical installation or part of an electrical installation.

Another motivation for issuing a COC for the inverter install only is the OHSA.

7(4) Where any addition or alteration has been effected to an electrical installation for which a certificate of compliance was previously issued, the user or lessor of such electrical installation shall obtain a certificate of compliance for at least the addition or alteration.

I do it all the time. Where I add something, I issue a COC for the addition only. Sorted.

[GCE]

He gave a whole list. No bridges in the DB smaller than 16mm. 2.5mm cable may not be protected by 25A CB. The motivation was that the socket outlet is only rated at 16A, yet it was insisted on that 20A CBs' be used. Cables in the roof had to have pieces of conduit secured to all the trusses to protect cables where they went over them, despite such occurrences not being where anyone would normally walk in the roofspace thus, no undue exposure to damage. A number of similar demands were made which my poor memory does not recall offhand. I concentrated more on just doing what was asked and I was being paid for.

You made a classic school boy error - You need to be able to back up the talk and then you can walk it

Some bridges were 2,5sqmm between breakers

SANS 10142-1 ed 3.1 - Clause 6.15.3 - If the CB is greater than 20Amp then each socket needs to be protected - You get the socket with a D/pole CB mounted on the socket - Way quicker and cheaper to change the 25amp to 20amp

6.15.3 Single-phase circuits that only supply socket-outlets rated
at 16 A
Single-phase circuits that only supply socket-outlets rated at not more than
16 A shall
a) have overcurrent protection,
b) use conductors that are rated at not less than 16 A, and
c) if the circuit protection is rated at more than 20 A, use only protected
socket-outlets, with as far as is practicable, discrimination between the
protective devices for the circuit and the protective devices associated with
the socket-outlets. The protective device of a protected socket-outlet shall,
1) have a fixed rated current that does not exceed the rating of the socketoutlet,
2) be mounted next to the socket-outlet that it protects,
3) provide protection against overload currents,
4) provide protection against short-circuit currents, unless short-circuit
protection is provided by a separate device, for example, on the
distribution board,
5) if it needs the protection of a back-up short-circuit device, be marked
with the required or maximum rating of the back-up device,
6) if it protects more than one socket-outlet, be so installed that all the
socket-outlets are connected in parallel, have the same rated current,
and are mounted next to the device, and
7) if it is a circuit-breaker, comply with the requirements of 6.8.2

With regards to pieces of conduits - now where was that stated - what was stated that T&E running over trusses and can be damaged
The T&E looked like spaghetti at the trapdoor and was a struggle to prevent damage when climbing into the roof space

6.4.3.1 To avoid damage to the sheath of a cable, only appropriate cleats,
saddles and clamps shall be used to fix a cable.
6.4.6.3 Unarmoured multicore cables need not be fixed in position in places
such as in roof spaces above ceilings and where the cables are unlikely to be
disturbed.

Those units are in an upmarket complex and brand new - The workmanship was horrendous with twisted joints in roof space and no boxes , T&E entering 4x4 boxes without glands - No ELU on geyser - no earth on geyser and earth wires twisted together in geyser compartment , solar geyser systems bypassed , DC fuse holders mounted open on wooden trusses for the PV geyser system- PV wires pushed under tiles and through weather membrane causing damage to membrane and tiles lying on PV wires , AC rated fuse holders and CB on DC PV wiring and battery circuits.AC and DC wiring in the same conduit and trunking
Part of PV panel structure not fastened to roof structure
Incorrectly label D/Boards
Decorative ceiling fan fed from geyser isolator
This was on a visual inspection without opening anything as no covers inc geyser covers where actually fastened

[GCE]

The electrical contractor has very limited knowledge of SANS, to the extent that an ECA official has abused his position and made ridiculous demands for changes to the installation which are not dictated by SANS. I have been contracted by the contractor to "rectify" the "faults", but have informed him which items are not in contravention. As long as he keeps paying me, I will do as he asks, albeit unnecessary.

I agree with that statement that there is limited knowledge - I am not aware of any ECA representative going to the complex
I as a contractor was asked by a client to have a look at his installation as there where strange things happening and his electricity bill seemed excessive when he took into account the PV system installed and that the geyser was on a Kwikhot PV system.
I was shocked at what was discovered by my IE's - As stated , it was visual as we did not want to disturb or alter the installation in any form.

The contractor has taken responsibility and repairing the problems . He was quick to put his hand up and say that " I buggered up and need to fix up " . Once the news got out we were asked to inspect further units on the owners insistent even though we keep stating that the contractor is rectify his errors in all units

We are being asked to go back and check that they have been rectified and brought up to SANS 10142-1 and SANS 60364-7-712
As a workshop we are well versed on the regulations and are not often wrong in our interpretation of the regulations

[Isetech]

What do you do if the meter box is closer to the outbuilding DB than the main DB ?

1/ Double up the cable in the meter circuit breaker and run the same size cable cable directly to the outbuilding DB, or

2/ Fit a sub Db next to the meter, label it main DB, fit a main switch and 2 circuit breakers (both 60 amp because the cables are both 16 mm sq) one feeding the main DB (which now becomes a sub DB 1) and the other to the outbuilding (which will be labelled Sub DB 2)