Definition of a circuit.

[Thys LOW Elektries]

This thread had me confused an worried so I went and got my pack of coc's to confirm a few things and I found out that
SECTION 3- DESCRIPTION OF INSTALLATION COVERED BY THIS REPORT, on my forms, don't ask for socket outlet breakers but rather "Socket outlet circuits" and "Socket outlets" I guess the intention of the coc is to count the circuits and outlets and not the breakers ??? Now I'm confused, what is the use of breakers then
It would have been nice to have a place where you can specify the size of the breakers on the COC that is why I include an annex with all the breakers, the purpose and their specs in a nice drawing

[Thys LOW Elektries]

Somewhere in the building they "borrowed" a neutral from a point close by., had seen it with lights a lot of times and once one a plug system.
The plug system was very creative. You used a 4-core surfix for three plugs and shared the neutral the whole time. Each live had its own breaker and all three was on the same phase.
Lights on a three phase system have special regulations so that you can't share a neutral between circuits.
No of incident where a young electrician was shocked, fell through the ceiling and broke his neck, all because of a shared neutral
Stick to the basics and things work a lot easier and safer

[Isetech]

Thank goodness I stopped filling out section 3 a couple of years ago, just imagine the confusion this would cause if people actually took note of the test report, eeeesish.

[GCE]

This thread had me confused an worried so I went and got my pack of coc's to confirm a few things and I found out that
SECTION 3- DESCRIPTION OF INSTALLATION COVERED BY THIS REPORT, on my forms, don't ask for socket outlet breakers but rather "Socket outlet circuits" and "Socket outlets" I guess the intention of the coc is to count the circuits and outlets and not the breakers ??? Now I'm confused, what is the use of breakers then
It would have been nice to have a place where you can specify the size of the breakers on the COC that is why I include an annex with all the breakers, the purpose and their specs in a nice drawing

You fill in the COC and mark off 3 C/Breakers - Later down the line you get back for a tripping problem and everyone is pointing fingers , how do you now prove quickly that there was only 1 circuit under each breaker but now there are suddenly 3 circuits .
With filling in circuits you point to the circuits counted on COC and state - " Somebody else has been here as there are extra circuits that we did not count "

[Derlyn]

Thank goodness I stopped filling out section 3 a couple of years ago, just imagine the confusion this would cause if people actually took note of the test report, eeeesish.

Not to open a can of worms, Brother, but how can a COC be valid without section 3 filled in ?
I'm trying to get my head around that one.

[Isetech]

I sent you a whattsapp with the documents.

Not to open a can of worms, Brother, but how can a COC be valid without section 3 filled in ?
I'm trying to get my head around that one.

[Derlyn]

Thanks brother, received. Thats section 3 and a bit extra. Your post had me thinking. 👍👍👍

[Isetech]

This certainly got me thinking, if you fill out the COC and section 3 the way you are suppose to, with all he correct data, eitehr way you wouldnt have a problem.

Lets say, there is 2 plug circuit (with 20 or 30 amp circuit breakers depending on the age of the installation and wire size) and 1 light circuit ( with a 5 or 10 or 15 amp circuit breaker) with 2 wires in each.

Once you count the points it would prevent you from adding circuits to the circuit breaker or electrical installation.

2 plug circuits and 5 points, if you fill out the document with 4 circuits and 5 points, there are still only 5 points, all you going to do is confuse peopled as pointed out already in this thread, it just doesnt make sense that you would need to remove the cover to identify the amount of circuits, Common sense would tell me that if you are going to count the wires in each breaker as points, then you need to correctly lablel the DB. Plugs P1 and P2, Plug P3 and P4, Lights L1 and L2, you would then need to attach a circuit label to each wire identifying which circuit each wire feeds, then attach a holder to the wall with a site layout of the circuits.

Considering we have gone from a 4 page COC to a 2 page COC, I cant see this happening any time soon

The only time counting wires on a breaker would be an advantage, if you are doing comercial/industrial installation where you are provived a site layout with all the circuits identified on the drawing, and even then it wouldnt apply because you could have 2 of the same "circuits" connected to one circuit breaker.

Just think - Even more incorrectly filled in COC's for you to kick back

[Isetech]

Doing it the way we do, prevents this type of confusion. It also helps when you work on a property where people work from home or in offices where you cant switch off the power just randomly so that you can identify a "circuit" be it a wire of "breaker" and nobody can add "points" nor circuits.

Just when we thought this was a challenge, there is a new way bigger challenge looming, dedicated/essential/critical circuits, connected to an inverter, this has already proved to be an issue challenge than one would expect.

We go to all the trouble of separating non essential and essential sometime refered to as critical or dedicated outlets.

In the past we have always use a special socket outlets (red with a flat section on the earth pin) for dedicated circuits.

Inverter service centres wonder why they have all these damaged units arriving, with burnt out relays. Nobody thought to fit dedicated outlets and tell everyone on the property about the socket outlets are connecte dand which are not connected to the inverter.

Thanks brother, received. Thats section 3 and a bit extra. Your post had me thinking. 

[Derlyn]

Doing it the way we do, prevents this type of confusion. It also helps when you work on a property where people work from home or in offices where you cant switch off the power just randomly so that you can identify a "circuit" be it a wire of "breaker" and nobody can add "points" nor circuits.

Just when we thought this was a challenge, there is a new way bigger challenge looming, dedicated/essential/critical circuits, connected to an inverter, this has already proved to be an issue challenge than one would expect.

We go to all the trouble of separating non essential and essential sometime refered to as critical or dedicated outlets.

In the past we have always use a special socket outlets (red with a flat section on the earth pin) for dedicated circuits.

Inverter service centres wonder why they have all these damaged units arriving, with burnt out relays. Nobody thought to fit dedicated outlets and tell everyone on the property about the socket outlets are connecte dand which are not connected to the inverter.

I am glad that my simple little circuit and question, got one or two people thinking.

I have been counting circuits ever since I can remember and always thought it to be what the test sheet asks for.
Then along comes someone and questions your method. This causes a little bit of doubt in one's mind.

Thanks to this forum and the regular contributors, I have now for once and for all put my mind at ease knowing that
I have been doing what is required, correctly.

Mission accomplished.

Now onto the next one ................

[Isetech]

Just make sure you label your DB correctly, indicating the number of circuits the breaker is feeding.

[Isetech]

I keep hearing this phrase, "read the regualtions", so I decided to go read the regs for the millionth time. I also keep hearing "read the instruction manual", the catch with the instruction manual it keeps telling me to read my local code, so why waste time reading the instruction manual, anyway that a discussion for another day.

"3.11circuit arrangement of conductors (see 3.14) for the purpose of carrying electric current"

"3.14conductor material that is capable of conducting electric current"

Is the wire in the bottom of a circuit breaker a conductor or a circuit?

If you counting the wires as circuits, what happens if you have 2 wires feeding the same group of lights in a room for example?

Let’s say you have 2 rows of down lights in a lounge or office for example with 6 lights each, would it be number of circuits 2 and 12 points or 1 circuit and 12 points?

If you add another light at the entrance to the lounge/office and run a wire to the DB and connect it to the same "circuit breaker" which is closer to the DB, do you add another circuit and another circuit and light point?

How do you label your DB.

3 X light or lights X 3 or

lights with X 3 below?

Do you label each "conductor" connected to the "Circuit" breaker, "circuit" 1/2/3 for easy identification


lights with a label below 3 circuits ?

[GCE]

I keep hearing this phrase, "read the regualtions", so I decided to go read the regs for the millionth time. I also keep hearing "read the instruction manual", the catch with the instruction manual it keeps telling me to read my local code, so why waste time reading the instruction manual, anyway that a discussion for another day.

"3.11circuit arrangement of conductors (see 3.14) for the purpose of carrying electric current"

"3.14conductor material that is capable of conducting electric current"

Is the wire in the bottom of a circuit breaker a conductor or a circuit?

A conductor or a circuit - You actually answered your question with the definitions in the previous sentence .

A piece of wire lying in your tool box is a conductor - Once you join those conductors in an orderly fashion to achieve a purpose then it will be " carrying Current " and so it will be a circuit or if you prefer an arrangement of conductors

If you counting the wires as circuits, what happens if you have 2 wires feeding the same group of lights in a room for example?

Let’s say you have 2 rows of down lights in a lounge or office for example with 6 lights each, would it be number of circuits 2 and 12 points or 1 circuit and 12 points?

It is 2 circuits as it is 2 separate arrangements of conductors independent of each other , carrying current

[Isetech]

Would you agree that each conductor should be labelled to identify that it is a circuit with the circuit number and the DB cover must have the correct labels, identifying that there is more than 1 circuit connected to the circuit breaker and what it feeds?

[W-TDMI]

There is defenitly 2 circuits leaving that DB - you where correct all the years please keep doing it the same.