Alarm system charge currents and backup batteries

[Isetech]

It depends on what the alarm charger does. If I remember correctly they have a simple voltage regulator which runs at 13.8V,
The smart chargers like to disconnect the charger once the battery reaches 14.4V, and then waits for the voltage to drop to 12.8V to then go into trickle charge mode. With the 13.8V from the alrm charger, the smart charger will remain disconnected, and would require you to disconnect and reconnect for it to reset the cycle.

It seems the relay option is really the only way to backup the system.

The ideal way to do it:

Connect a relay to the 230 VAC supply, if the power drops the relay contact switches from open to closed and the charger switches off, when the power switches on the relay switches switches back to the open position and the charger will switch on and start charging the support battery while the alarm battery will charge using the panel charger.

It is also very important to remove all peripheral devices power from the alarm panel, we install a 18 amp/hr battery with a 6.4 amp charger. This is also a primitive way of doing it. I am busy trying to figure out an affordable lithium solution.

Paying R900 for a 8 amp/hr lithium battery is as bad as paying R20 000 for a Sunsynk inverter. People are pulling the ring out of it.

My thoughts are to do away with the old method of using a 7 amp/hr lead acid battery or gel and 18 amp/hr lead acid or gel battery with a bigger power supply, rather fit a smart charger with a bigger lithium battery, and at the same time replace the 7 amp/hr with a lithium replacement (it doesnt have to be a 7 amp/hr, it could be smaller , which will connect to the big lithium battery when there is a power failure. The little battery is just be to keep the system running because the alarm companies havent move forward with the new technology. If they dont want to outlay the funds to upgrade their old technology easy money boards , then they should consider fitting a sperate charger supplied as an extra and disconnect old charging method.

At the rate 7 amp/hr batteries are being dumped, they should be considered a health risk, considering the method used to empty the batteries. After this long power outage we are replacing batteries by the crate. I shouldnt complain it is the fastest easiest R800 you can make. I should have got a lad on a bike, dropped the price to R600 and had him spend his day just replacing 7 alarm and gate batteries.

[Isetech]

It depends on what the alarm charger does. If I remember correctly they have a simple voltage regulator which runs at 13.8V,
The smart chargers like to disconnect the charger once the battery reaches 14.4V, and then waits for the voltage to drop to 12.8V to then go into trickle charge mode. With the 13.8V from the alarm charger, the smart charger will remain disconnected, and would require you to disconnect and reconnect for it to reset the cycle.

The charger will switch off when the power goes off and restart/reset once the power is restored ?

Would the 13.8 VDC charger and battery current charge state conflict with each other?

There must be a simple solution.

The alarm systems are supplied using an 16 VAC transformer, fitted with a 13.8 VDC charger which I am assuming is used to power the board? When the power is lost the battery back feeds into the panel to keep it powered during outages.

The person who figures out a solution to this alarm/gate 7 amp/hr battery problem is going to make some good money. I dont believe the lithium 8 amp/hr replacement battery is the solution, maybe on the budget systems where there is no need for a ton peripheral devices to operate (those people dont wan to spend R900 on a battery either) I see AC/DC have them on special for R850 .00

[Justloadit]

The charger will switch off when the power goes off and restart/reset once the power is restored ?

Yes

Would the 13.8 VDC charger and battery current charge state conflict with each other?

It may, because when the charger powers up, it looks at the battery voltage to determine the state of charge. However if the battery is flat, the limited current from the 13.8V alarm charger will follow the battery voltage, so the smart charger will identify the flat battery.

There must be a simple solution.

The alarm systems are supplied using an 16 VAC transformer, fitted with a 13.8 VDC charger which I am assuming is used to power the board? When the power is lost the battery back feeds into the panel to keep it powered during outages.

Correct. If you do not want the alarm charger to charge your battery, insert a 10A diode in series with the battery and the alarm system. Connect the smart charger to the battery. Problem solved.

The person who figures out a solution to this alarm/gate 7 amp/hr battery problem is going to make some good money. I dont believe the lithium 8 amp/hr replacement battery is the solution, maybe on the budget systems where there is no need for a ton peripheral devices to operate (those people dont wan to spend R900 on a battery either) I see AC/DC have them on special for R850 .00

Any other kind of solution is going to cost more then the Blue Nova, even using the 18Amp battery, what is the cost? Also it will take twice as long to charge off the alarm so called charger, and frequent power fails will never get the battery to charge correctly. Adding the external smart charger is no cheap solution either.
choose your poison they all come at a cost.

[Isetech]

Yip anyway you look at it, it is going to cost a few bob. I think it is going to be better to find an around solution for load shedding to include the alarm, lights, CCTV, router etc.

[Dylboy]

I have done a separate battery on a victron charger which replaces the the 7AH on the gate motor. Its a D5 and i have to have the charge pin thing plugged in for it to work on mains, so to a degree as far as I can work out it parallel charges. However it has been quite a few months with plenty loadshedding and no loadshedding and all is well. The battery is a 100AH lead acid something

But for homes where I install backup inverters I get the alarm, gate and garage motors on the inverter where possible.

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[Justloadit]

Paying R900 for a 8 amp/hr lithium battery is as bad as paying R20 000 for a Sunsynk inverter. People are pulling the ring out of it.

Don't under estimate the reason for the Sunsynk inverter cost.

One of the first points to consider, is that the cheaper inverters have fans running constantly to keep the inverter working.

2 issues with fans running all the time, one is noise, very irritating, and the second is the dust and garbage that gets sucked in by the fans, and depositing it on the heatsink fins.
This requires regular maintenance of opening the inverters and cleaning the dust to ensure proper cooling of the heatsinks, and requires replacement of the fans over time due to the wear and tear on the bush bearings used in the fans.
Another issue with the fans, is that it allows any impurities in the air to get into the electronics inside the enclosure. Whilst you can use conformal coating to protect the electronics, the same can not be done for terminals, and believe me there a a number of them. Every terminal pin in every connection point can be an issue due to corroding or oxidization. Casing erratic behaviour and damn difficult to fault find.

You will note that the Sunsynk is silent.
It is IP65 rated, that means that the internal electronics are protected from the outside environment, and for coastal usage a big plus.
There are no external fans to cool the electronics.
There is a set of fans only internal to circulate the air to disperse the temperature with in the inverter.
The inverter has a very big heatsink, for proper electronics cooling, and is using the latest power electronics technology, which ensures that more energy is converted with lower loses, one reason why no external fans.

You can not compare the Sunsynk operational features against cheaper competition.
Adding all this extra features will naturally increase the base cost bu worth it. Compare it to the Vectron.

[Dylboy]

A note on the sunsynk from installing one... I did a 8kw beginning of the year and there are 3 fans... they kick in when AC temp internal is 50°C and I believe same with DC but need to confirm. Those fans are not silent albeit not bad but still enough to to not be installed in side a house where tv is watched or in a office.

The 5KW or Deye may be different as I did read of a model with no visible fans and I think quiter

So yes there may be a silent one but the 8kw sunsynk I did was fork-oil silent when at 50°C temp haha

Edit: if the temps can be controlled then it is as quite as a church mouse


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[Alfred M]

The problem with the sealed 7ah lead acid battery during load shedding the battery discharge past 50%dod immediate damage to the lead acid and if it totaly discharge(gate stopping half way) total battery damage it will charge when power is restored but capacity compromised. Average alarm system draws 6watts 0.5amps at 12volt at 50% dod the 7ah lead acid battery will be on its limit few times of load shedding battery capacity is comprised.
Inverter or ups covering alarm gates and essential electronics is the best option so sealed lead acid doesn't discharge and should last longer. LifePO4 7ah is a much better option and will last much longer and more efficient if discharged beyond 50%. I do have a ups covering all my essentials but have installed this battery on my alarm system, gate and garage door current chargers on gate and alarm not a problem. Picture of batteries installed at R 765/ battery.

[Alfred M]

https://www.batteryexperts.co.za/shop/12v-7ah-lithium-phosphate/

[Alfred M]

https://www.takealot.com/alarm-gate-ups-lithium-battery-upgrade-12v-7ah-sla-alternative/PLID73145085

[Justloadit]

A note on the sunsynk from installing one... I did a 8kw beginning of the year and there are 3 fans... they kick in when AC temp internal is 50°C and I believe same with DC but need to confirm. Those fans are not silent albeit not bad but still enough to to not be installed in side a house where tv is watched or in a office.

The 5KW or Deye may be different as I did read of a model with no visible fans and I think quiter

So yes there may be a silent one but the 8kw sunsynk I did was fork-oil silent when at 50°C temp haha

Edit: if the temps can be controlled then it is as quite as a church mouse

Good to know. The fans probably run for short periods making it more tolerable than the continues running fans.
Another point is that the fans are on the outside blowing over the cooling fins, making maintenance easier, simply use compressed air to clean the build up on the fans.

What we tend to forget, is that the unit is handling 8Kw, so lets say that the efficiency is 96%, then 4% of the loses is heat.
That equates to 320w of heat. That is a fair number to work with so not surprised by the fans as an auxiliary support to keep the power electronics running cool.

[Dylboy]

Yes 100% they on for if memory serves less than 10 mins, it gets it to around 30 degrees or less then switches off. It happens quickly.

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[Gensix]

Hi.

The problem is not actually the battery - but the size of the load comparative to the battery.

You need to spec your load so that the load will not discharge the lead acid battery below 50% during a 4 hour load shed (stage 6).

As you rightly mention - the alarm system charger will not recharge the used capacity (between load shedding) if you are using larger capacity batteries.

Replacing with a similar capacity or larger capacity lithium battery won't help for the same reason.

You can replace the battery with a larger capacity battery and connect a suitable smart charger to the battery. (It won't conflict with the alarm charger - it will simply over-ride it) Ensure that the Charge Rate is not more than 10% of the battery capacity if it's lead acid, or more than 30% of capacity if it's lithium.

I agree that there is no sense in dropping in a similar capacity lithium battery. 1. The charge rate remains the same and cannot recharge fast enough, it has even more capacity to recharge with a lithium battery. 2. If the load doesn't discharge a lead acid battery beyond 50% then the extra cost of a lithium battery was unnecessary, if you are carrying heavy loads that deplete the battery beyond 50% then a same capacity lithium battery won't help you either on an alarm system.

[Isetech]

Alarm installation are little tricky, another industry that people think they a 1 day course makes them experts.

We have to deal with keypad programmers,

Radios connected directly to the battery terminal,

Installations with wires just hanging everywhere, which results in broken wires because the electrician or plumber or anyone else who uses the roof space.

People who dont understand the difference between the bus voltage and the peripheral voltage and isolation.

C rating of batteries for charging and discharging for lead acid and lithium.

Batteries cycles and DOD in lead and lithium, cut out voltage and charge voltages.

When you take the time to learn and understand all this stuff, you start to understand why most alarm sirens are screaming 3 days in to load shedding.

One of the advantages IDS is their systems is now controlled by 24 VDC and not 16 VAC anymore, this just takes them to another level. I just with they would update their app to make it more stable and user friendly.

[Gensix]

Hi.

The problem is not actually the battery - but the size of the load comparative to the battery.

You need to spec your load so that the load will not discharge the lead acid battery below 50% during a 4 hour load shed (stage 6).

As you rightly mention - the alarm system charger will not recharge the used capacity (between load shedding) if you are using larger capacity batteries.

Replacing with a similar capacity or larger capacity lithium battery won't help for the same reason.

You can replace the battery with a larger capacity battery and connect a suitable smart charger to the battery. (It won't conflict with the alarm charger - it will simply over-ride it) Ensure that the Charge Rate is not more than 10% of the battery capacity if it's lead acid, or more than 30% of capacity if it's lithium.

I agree that there is no sense in dropping in a similar capacity lithium battery. 1. The charge rate remains the same and cannot recharge fast enough, it has even more capacity to recharge with a lithium battery. 2. If the load doesn't discharge a lead acid battery beyond 50% then the extra cost of a lithium battery was unnecessary, if you are carrying heavy loads that deplete the battery beyond 50% then a same capacity lithium battery won't help you either on an alarm system.

Update - The lithium battery will charge 30% quicker, so in some cases will help. But again it all depends on the load and whether the load is discharging the lithium beyond 80% or even fully discharging.