Geyser earthing and bonding

[Isetech]

Back to the topic, something to think about, what if the mains water pipe is PVC/plastic or a piece of the copper pipe is replaced with polycop using brass coupling and elbows etc?

[Derlyn]

Us toppies with 40 years plus experience in the field, not in the classroom, know what it's like attending to an earth fault at 2am and the whole installation is in darkness because some bright spark has fed all the lights through the earth leakage. Alfred M, it is safer for the lights to remain on, should there be an earth fault.

I can also imagine you buying a new stove every six months when it starts tripping the earth leakage. New stoves are sold with specific instructions not to connect them through earth leakage, for a good reason. It's called nuisance tripping. Yes, my brother, there exists something called nuisance tripping.

Most of us toppies who are active here on the forum are not as you say, stuck in a rut. We all have the latest copies of sans 10142 and strive to keep up to date with the latest regulations.

We do however know where to draw the line as far as safety is concerned. One day when you start quoting against your competitors, you will realize that if you don't draw that line in the right place, you gonna come short. You either not gonna get any work or you not gonna show a profit, one of the two.

I would never have the audacity to tell someone like GCE to learn something. Rather learn from him as much as you can. It will come in handy and that's a promise.

Peace out.

[Dylboy]

I can not wait until we install RCBO's and that becomes the norm. Heck even the AFDD with RCD protection will be one better haha.

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[Dylboy]

Also agreed that the forum is great to chat and learn from all. And gives us a Chanel to openly chat and discuss items and that on its own will make us better

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[GCE]

Back to the topic, something to think about, what if the mains water pipe is PVC/plastic or a piece of the copper pipe is replaced with polycop using brass coupling and elbows etc?

If all pipes are pvc then the geyser needs to be bonded as per 6.16.2 - Then that is where the grey area of Twin & earth not having a full 2,5sqmm earth will come in.

6.13.2.2 Hot and cold water systems
Where the hot water system includes electric components and the water pipes
are of conducting material, hot and cold water systems shall be bonded
together and also be bonded to the earth continuity conductor system

6.16.2 Water heaters
NOTE Water heaters include geysers, instantaneous water heaters including units for
boiling water, heat pumps, solar systems, induction water heaters and the like (see also
6.16.1). electrode water heaters, steam generators and boilers are not included (refer
to 6.16.7)
6.16.2.1 All water heaters shall be bonded in accordance with 6.13 and a.c.
supply circuits shall be protected by earth leakage protection with IΔn not
exceeding 30 mA.
NOTE To mitigate nuisance earth leakage tripping, an additional earth leakage may
be provided.

[Isetech]

The geyser combo was a nice addition to the circuit breaker catalogue, just imagine how cool it would be if you could buy a geyser combo with built in RCBO function and even better arc fault protection

That's me done for today, I can hear the generator running out of fuel. 2 days and still no power.

[Alfred M]

Us toppies with 40 years plus experience in the field, not in the classroom, know what it's like attending to an earth fault at 2am and the whole installation is in darkness because some bright spark has fed all the lights through the earth leakage. Alfred M, it is safer for the lights to remain on, should there be an earth fault.

I can also imagine you buying a new stove every six months when it starts tripping the earth leakage. New stoves are sold with specific instructions not to connect them through earth leakage, for a good reason. It's called nuisance tripping. Yes, my brother, there exists something called nuisance tripping.

Most of us toppies who are active here on the forum are not as you say, stuck in a rut. We all have the latest copies of sans 10142 and strive to keep up to date with the latest regulations.

We do however know where to draw the line as far as safety is concerned. One day when you start quoting against your competitors, you will realize that if you don't draw that line in the right place, you gonna come short. You either not gonna get any work or you not gonna show a profit, one of the two.

I would never have the audacity to tell someone like GCE to learn something. Rather learn from him as much as you can. It will come in handy and that's a promise.

Peace out.

The toppies needs to have headlamps when called out at 2am in the morning the point i am trying to make is you wont know about an earth fault if it doesn't go through the RCD and that is a safety risk to owner changing a light bulb or to you as contractor.
Why would you need to change a stove every 6 months should it be RCD protected are you now going to change your geyser every six months because it is now RCD protected. All my curcuits in my house has been RCD protected for the last 25 years and i had very few "nuisance tripping" issues but on a few occasions when it tripped it was a pot boiling over on the stove(solid plates) that it is a good thing right it protected my wife in that instance. Oven element did trip RCD after 15 years because it needed replacement. The safety factor protecting all curcuits outweighs the discomfort factor.
In your last paragraph you seems to suggest that i was disrespectful towards GCE not at all i simply saying we all learn every day unless the toppies feel they don't learn anymore by the way i am also in the toppie crowd. But still where this all started a few presentation slides posted now i am made out to be disrespectful. I am sure i will be learning a lot of new things in this forum from GCE and other toppies and non toppies
Peace ✌️ out brother all good

[GCE]

The toppies needs to have headlamps when called out at 2am in the morning the point i am trying to make is you wont know about an earth fault if it doesn't go through the RCD and that is a safety risk to owner changing a light bulb or to you as contractor.
Why would you need to change a stove every 6 months should it be RCD protected are you now going to change your geyser every six months because it is now RCD protected. All my curcuits in my house has been RCD protected for the last 25 years and i had very few "nuisance tripping" issues but on a few occasions when it tripped it was a pot boiling over on the stove(solid plates) that it is a good thing right it protected my wife in that instance. Oven element did trip RCD after 15 years because it needed replacement. The safety factor protecting all curcuits outweighs the discomfort factor.
In your last paragraph you seems to suggest that i was disrespectful towards GCE not at all i simply saying we all learn every day unless the toppies feel they don't learn anymore by the way i am also in the toppie crowd. But still where this all started a few presentation slides posted now i am made out to be disrespectful. I am sure i will be learning a lot of new things in this forum from GCE and other toppies and non toppies
Peace ✌️ out brother all good

RCD were originally introduce to protect portable appliances especially the leads to portable appliances because the risk was always there that the earth connection could come loose or some that did not have an earth.
The rcd would pick up an imbalance on live and neutral and trip.

Fixed appliances and general wiring don't have that problem and if earthing is carried out correctly there is absolutely no reason to put them on RCD. On an earth fault the circuit breaker will trip.

According to my sources the RCD on a geyser was strongly motivated by one person sitting on the technical workgroup and that person should have retired long time ago from the industry
There was no need to put geysers on RCD , the only time it becomes a problem is if the earthing is incorrect.

[Isetech]

RCD were originally introduce to protect portable appliances especially the leads to portable appliances because the risk was always there that the earth connection could come loose or some that did not have an earth.
The rcd would pick up an imbalance on live and neutral and trip.

Fixed appliances and general wiring don't have that problem and if earthing is carried out correctly there is absolutely no reason to put them on RCD. On an earth fault the circuit breaker will trip.

According to my sources the RCD on a geyser was strongly motivated by one person sitting on the technical workgroup and that person should have retired long time ago from the industry
There was no need to put geysers on RCD , the only time it becomes a problem is if the earthing is incorrect.

Let me get this right, so one person can control the entire SANS regulations content, did all the sheep just bleat , maybe because they couldn't come up with a better proposal ?

I am surprised at your response, I can only assume you dont do much domestic work or domestic COC's. People cant even fill out the form correctly, now you expect everyone to bond and earth geysers correctly.

When last did you look at a geyser replaced by approved insurance plumber?

I find geysers with the wire twisted around the pipe with no clamp and and no earth continuity conductor.

From my experience in the field, and the crap workmanship I have to deal with, everything should be on earth leakage for the customers safety.

[GCE]

Let me get this right, so one person can control the entire SANS regulations content, did all the sheep just bleat , maybe because they couldn't come up with a better proposal ?

I am surprised at your response, I can only assume you dont do much domestic work or domestic COC's. People cant even fill out the form correctly, now you expect everyone to bond and earth geysers correctly.

When last did you look at a geyser replaced by approved insurance plumber?

I find geysers with the wire twisted around the pipe with no clamp and and no earth continuity conductor.

From my experience in the field, and the crap workmanship I have to deal with, everything should be on earth leakage for the customers safety.

We cant keep making rules and adding requirements just because we expect people to do crap work.
If we stop doing that and people get shocked and a couple of people die then maybe people will stop hiring the ones that take short cuts

And let the contractor sit in court on a murder charge then you will see an increase in quality work .

[Isetech]

We cant keep making rules and adding requirements just because we expect people to do crap work.
If we stop doing that and people get shocked and a couple of people die then maybe people will stop hiring the ones that take short cuts

And let the contractor sit in court on a murder charge then you will see an increase in quality work .

I wish I could live in your Truman bubble.

The reality is the workmanship is not going to get any better, you sound like you have been around the block a few time, have you seen an improvement in the industry in the past 10 years.

We need special solutions for special people, any sensible person would tell you not to walk on the freeway, there is a bus stop/taxi rank on the N2 , if you dont believe me ask Dave, its on the freeway just up from his offices

It sounds like the old man is a lot wiser than you give him credit, maybe its a good thing he hasn't retired yet.

I would say rather safe than sorry, so putting the whole house on earth leakage, including the stove, geyser, gate motor and everything else which has 230/400 Volts may be a slight inconvenience but in the long run way safer, is that not the aim of the SANS 10142. If you go right to the top of document, you find it under the introduction.

Introduction

The aim of this part of SANS 10142 is to ensure that people, animals and
property are protected from hazards that can arise from the operation of an
electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions. An electrical
installation has to provide protection against:

This why, like most things in this country, I just smile and laugh at regs like the ZA plug, would I rather follow a ridiculous rule like the ZA plug or create a safer environment for the customer. I think everyone who follows this platform will know my answer.

[Isetech]

Anyone not familiar with the truman bubble (show).

One day when I grow up I also want to go live in an estate, just like all the others rich people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlnmQbPGuls&ab_channel=MovieclipsClassicTrailers

[Alfred M]

I wish I could live in your Truman bubble.

The reality is the workmanship is not going to get any better, you sound like you have been around the block a few time, have you seen an improvement in the industry in the past 10 years.

We need special solutions for special people, any sensible person would tell you not to walk on the freeway, there is a bus stop/taxi rank on the N2 , if you dont believe me ask Dave, its on the freeway just up from his offices

It sounds like the old man is a lot wiser than you give him credit, maybe its a good thing he hasn't retired yet.

I would say rather safe than sorry, so putting the whole house on earth leakage, including the stove, geyser, gate motor and everything else which has 230/400 Volts may be a slight inconvenience but in the long run way safer, is that not the aim of the SANS 10142. If you go right to the top of document, you find it under the introduction.

Introduction

The aim of this part of SANS 10142 is to ensure that people, animals and
property are protected from hazards that can arise from the operation of an
electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions. An electrical
installation has to provide protection against:

This why, like most things in this country, I just smile and laugh at regs like the ZA plug, would I rather follow a ridiculous rule like the ZA plug or create a safer environment for the customer. I think everyone who follows this platform will know my answer.

Isetech with what you said i 100% agree safety is a much higher priority as comfort well said thank you. That is the reason UK is strongly leaning towards RCBO's

[Isetech]

If a 2.5 mm min. wire size is required for earthing and bonding of a geyser, how is it possible that inspectors are passing inspection reports and issuing COC's for properties which are fed with a 2.5 mm twin+E, the earth wire in the twin is certainly not 2.5mm and the "certified twin+E" being sold on social media platforms for a mere R550, I dont believe the red and black is 2.5 mm copper.

Old installations will still pass and in some cases where 2.5 mm house wire was used, in most cases a 2.5 mm surfix or twin is used.

[Dylboy]

The supply to the geyser could be the 2.5mm and the 1.5mm earth wire is fine for earthing but then they use a separate conductor of 2.5mm to bond and it does not have to be by the geyser either... We just do it at the geyser as easier generally but the bonding could be somewhere else.

Also if you getting the 0.2ohm reading or less then it's a pass on tests.
Visual you may not see where it is actually bonded.

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