[Question] May plumbers change a geyser element?

[Frank The Blade]

Hi, is there somewhere in the SABS regulations that when a geyser element or thermostat is replaced in an existing geyser it must be done by a qualified electrician ? I do some work for an insurance company and find that most of this work is given to a plumber first. I have tried explaining to them that if you have no hot water and there is cold water flowing from the hot tap. You then need a plumber, and if there is a cold water flow you need a sparky because the problem is then electrical. So the plumbers get 80% of the work and i only get called when the plumber can not find power at the geyser.

As the element and thermostat are electrical components along with the fact that the wiring is been removed and reconnected (simple as it is). Is there a regulation that says it must comply and be done or checked by a licensed electrician before power is restored to the geyser ?

Thanks, Frank.

[Frank The Blade]

Please note of my correction to one of the sentences in my above post. "NO water flow.........."

I have tried explaining to them that if you have no hot water and there is NO water flowing from the hot tap. You then need a plumber, and if there is a cold water flow you need a sparky.

Thanks, Frank.

[AndyD]

As far as I know the electrical regs wouldn't prevent a plumber, or any electrically unskilled person for that matter, replacing a geyser element if it's a like-for-like replacement if they're not changing the electrical characteristics of the original design.

I'm not someone who works to the domestic install regs very often so maybe wait for confirmation from one of the domestic sparkies.

[DieterT]

First part will be difined in OHSA in the EIR and the EMR which specifically stipulates the responsibilities of an electrical installer and electrical appliances installed/ changed or modified (maintenance)

Secondaly there needs to be looked at the SANS10142-1 in order to understand the requirements of a geyser / water heater installation & maintenace requirements.

For the layman the best way to understand when an electrician is required is when a new installation is done or change of such installation / circuit is required.

By law when changing the caracteristic of circuit an compentant person is required to issue such change and an quilified installation electrician (single phase/3phase/master) to issue an certificate of compliance for such change.

See OHSA & SANS10142-1 for terminology devinitions.

Keep in mind that when a geyser element or geyser itself is changed that this changes the characteristics of the circuit. This includes the electrical connection and earth bonding of such appliance.

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[AndyD]

Keep in mind that when a geyser element or geyser itself is changed that this changes the characteristics of the circuit. This includes the electrical connection and earth bonding of such appliance.

Hi Dieter. What makes you say that replacing the geyser element (obviously assuming like for like) is altering the characteristic of the electrical circuit to being different from its original design? I'm also a bit confused why bonding would be an issue.

[DieterT]

Hi Andy

If I could answer your question with a question. What certifies a plumber to make the call that no alteration was made to the characteristic of the electrical circuit when he replaces an element?

And in regards to earth bonding when a geyser is replaced, firstly being that most plumbers never do this and secondly as it is a MUST requirement on the inspection & test report thus a new CoC to be issued when a geyser is replaced. The characteristics of the circuit changes when earth bonding is removed or modified.

See Test 1 & 2 and Visual inspection 8 & 9 on CoC Section 4

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[gobbleteller]

I'd have to agree with Andy. If the element is replaced with the exact same rated element, no change has been made to the installation electrically. On the other hand, if a 2kW element is replaced with a 3kW element you have a different kettle of fish.
Franks enquiry is about replacing an ELEMENT or THERMOSTAT and not an entire geyser. Lets try answering the post so that Frank ( and anyone else reading the post) can actually be a bit better educated.

I think sometimes the regs are taken too literal and I understand because peoples safety is at stake. Dieter you ask what makes a plumber certify that he hasnt made any electrical alterations to the circuit, but then who certifies the same when a knob is changed on a stove or a globe is changed in a fitting?

[DieterT]

Good day Gobbleteller

In regards to elemenent change "exact for exact" the possibility is great that anyone competent can do this. Trying to get an detailed answer from inpector now.

Just trying to get people to think a bit about regulations rather than just surface reading and making their own conclusions. This is how one becomes more educated.

As for including the part about change of geyser. I tend to take the regulation as a whole and not just out of context. Much similar as one would read the bible (as the SANS is our bible)

I do agree that sometimes regulations are taken to literally as can also be argumented with the bible (saying this as the SANS is our bible for the electrical industry) and this can be seen in other 1st world countries as things end up becomming over regulated and people stop using their brains and stop taking responsibility and paying an arm and a leg for such.

Try understand what changing the characteristics of a circuit mean. Understand the extent of the responsibility of a plumber and an electrician.
At the end of the day I cannot give a flying rats ass who the user/lessor/owner of an installation uses to do his electrical/plumbing works. He is the one taking responsibility for that contractor so he better have done his homework.

We all like to save a buck, but sometimes not understanding it means saving a buck in exhange for someone's live / an failed insurance claim and loss of property.

Ps : I have been involved in 3 different cases where houses burnt down due to loose connections on geysers where a plumber changed the element / thermostat. Thank God for technology and being able to proof modifications where made to the original installation which had my name and registration number on the CoC. It is amazing that a geyser including drip tray is not flameretardent (drip tray actually provokes the fire)

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[DieterT]

Good day to all

I have just confirmed with the inspector. The EIR (Electrical Installation Regulations) needs to be looked at, specifically Regulation 6 "No person may do electrical installation work as an electrical
contractor unless that person has been registered as an electrical contractor in terms of these Regulations "

There is no DIY clause in the OHS act. The rest of the EIR should also be considered when reading regulation 6 as to understand terminology used.

In regards to the question of changing an element or thermostat on a geyser, the answer is yes the plumber may do this only if the electrician disconnects and reconnects the electrical connections or if the plumber is a registered electrical contractor
An CoC shall only be issued should a change of the characteristics of the circuit have been made.

I do apologize as I said earlier that the change of element or thermostat will result in changing the characteristics of the circuit whih in the case of "like for like" will most probably not effect the characteristics of the circuit and therefore would not require a CoC to be issued. However it is required to be disconnected and reconnected by an registered electrician or person and not a plumber.

http://www.labour.gov.za/DOL/downloads/legislation/regulations/occupational-health-and-safety/eir2009.pdf

[Leecatt]

Good day to all

I have just confirmed with the inspector. The EIR (Electrical Installation Regulations) needs to be looked at, specifically Regulation 6 "No person may do electrical installation work as an electrical
contractor unless that person has been registered as an electrical contractor in terms of these Regulations "

There is no DIY clause in the OHS act. The rest of the EIR should also be considered when reading regulation 6 as to understand terminology used.

In regards to the question of changing an element or thermostat on a geyser, the answer is yes the plumber may do this only if the electrician disconnects and reconnects the electrical connections or if the plumber is a registered electrical contractor
An CoC shall only be issued should a change of the characteristics of the circuit have been made.

I do apologize as I said earlier that the change of element or thermostat will result in changing the characteristics of the circuit whih in the case of "like for like" will most probably not effect the characteristics of the circuit and therefore would not require a CoC to be issued. However it is required to be disconnected and reconnected by an registered electrician or person and not a plumber.

http://www.labour.gov.za/DOL/downloa...ty/eir2009.pdf

I agree exactly with this statement that a electrician must disconnect and reconnect the electrical connections on the geyser.
I would also like to add a little more.
You raised a very important point when you mentioned the electrical bonding of the geyser and the pipes.
I would say that when a geyser is replaced the electrician should not only attend to the electrical connections but also to the bonding strapping.
Furthermore i dont think that an electrician is suitably qualified to replace the element as there are seals involved and the geyser has to be drained correctly which involves tampering with other valves etc.
Replacement of a geyser element is definitely a two profession job in my opinion.

[AndyD]

I wouldn't see bonding as part of the issue because it's connected to the surrounding pipes and wouldn't be disturbed usually.

I agree exactly with this statement that a electrician must disconnect and reconnect the electrical connections on the geyser......

Many geyser elements don't actually have any wiring as such, the thermostat is wired and it pushes into the element with spade terminals basically like a plug and socket. Are you saying a plumber shouldn't be able to pull out the thermostat to allow the element to be replaced?



What about an interior designer who wants to install different coloured steel fascia plates on the switches or sockets in a room? The fascias are electrically speaking a part of the circuit because they're connected to the CPC via the chassis of the switch. Would they need to call an electrician?

[DieterT]

Good day Andy

Bonding would be an issue as this a crucial part of an electrical installation and is required to be done properly. Most plumbers don't even bother with bonding especially when they replace geysers. So yes usually it is disturbed. Not saying you are like most plumbers, but that is the norm in the industry as I have noticed.

Ps : Earth bonding also refered to as electrically continious means that the earth bonding be done properly with an earth strap between the hot water pipe and the cold water pipe connected to the earthing terminal of the geyser with the incomming supply earth with a lug. Just for incase you where wondering.

In regards to your push in spade elements, if that is the case and no electrical connection are disconnected and reconnected then I do not forsee any problems in regards to that. If you would like to put your worries at rest then I can supply you with the AIA for Gauteng's number and you can give him a call to get clarity on what you are allowed to do as a plumber and what not.

As for changing the steel plates to a different colour on the switches I a pretty sure the interior designer would not have to call an electrician to do so as this would not change the characteristics of the circuit and I am pretty sure that no electrical connection will be disconnected and reconnected in the process.

I hope that this gives you clarity on all your questions, but again should you feel you need more clearer answers from someone that might be concidered as a more releable source I suggest getting in contact with the AIA. After all he is the person who would be your prosecutor in court, who better to advise you.

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[Leecatt]

Hi Dieter, would that AIA be Mark Palmer by any chance?
Andy, in most cases the wires connected to the element are short and do not allow for the complete withdrawal of the thermostat without being disconnected from the thermostat. There are also other types which are not push in which require a while different approach. Then there is also the question of the cover which in many cases never gets replaced by the plumber leaving the wires exposed.

[DieterT]

Hi Leecatt

The AIA is Nico van den Berg. I think Mark Palmer lost his AIA registration about 5years ago if I remember correctly.

Ow yes, lets not forget the covers that is MIA at almost every installation. Sometimes, just rarely, sometimes the cover is laying in another part of the ceiling... I wonder what these guys do in the ceiling, probably smoke weed or inhaling to much of the solder fumes...
At a few installations I had to go and buy a cover in order to complete my CoC. Such unnecessary difficulties.

[ians]

Complicating things again. My question would be simple, if a plumber cannot replace a geyser element, then how can an aircon tech work on an aircon electrics (230v), gate installer work on the electrics of a gate motor (230 v) or a door technician work on a 230 v door motor, machine tech a machine, the list is so long we will just leave it at...etc etc etc.

Personally i dont do geyser unless they are the pull out ceramic type were no plumbing is involved. I call the plumber and they do the works. If there is an issue with the wiring or the terminals are damaged or the wire breaks because it is brittle, then they call me and i fix the electrical parts.

There is generally a geyser isolator right next to the geyser and an isolator next to the stove which breaks both live and neutral so that the "stove technician or appliance repair man" who is normally not an electrician can replace the stove element or the plumber can replace the geyser element. OR the lockable isolator located in the DB which 99 % of electricians dont carry the locks to isolate CB so that whole reg just makes no sense, because i know someone is going to say but the plumber doesnt carry a lockout system, well nor do electricians. A bit of insulation tape works great for locking out circuit breakers. Unless of course we are talking factory environments but i am assuming we are talking a domestic geyser replacement in this thread.