Who may work on an electrical installation?

[douw]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and joined specifically to ask for some opinions and your interpretations on the new EIR's.

So here goes:

The way I understand it, the regulations seems to aim to prevent anyone who is not a registered person, or supervised full time by a registered person, from undertaking any electrical work (reg. 6(1), 6(4)(b) and 5(4)).

That seems fair for new installations and commercial electrical work. I'm just wondering what this implies for all those 'bakkie' contractors doing fencing, pool pumps, plumbers installing geysers, etc. Also what happens if I replace or install my own pool pump, or install some new lights on the stoep. BTW I'm a millwright so I should be able to install a pool pump or some lights, as is many, many DIY'ers with more or less adequate skills to perform their own electrical work who are not regestered persons.

I realize that some or all of these regulations are not new, I was just reading it now because it was updated and these questions came to mind. Reg. 6(4)(b) combined with 5(4) implies that you can't get a registered person after the work has been done to test and certify it though, which I think is a new development or at least not the norm in the industry at the moment.

What are your responses?

PS: Moderator, if you think this should be a new thread plase move it or let me know and I'll repost.

[murdock]

in south africa anyone can work on an electrical installation...until they start policing the industry which could take a few years still to get "skilled people to perform the task who dont look after their buddies"

the electrical industry is a joke.

[Dave A]

I think the idea is to try to clarify the legal situation as opposed to what is actually happening...

[douw]

Thanks Murdoc.

Everyone I talk to seems to be in agreement with you about the state of the industry. It just seems strange to me that all electricians you ever meet outside of work are always beyond any reproach and "will never stand for substandard work on their sites", yet I never seem to see any of their work anywhere except on industrial sites where everything is inspected by knowledgeable people and you don't get paid if your work does not conform.

I think what is happening is the same as the current trend in Gauteng to run red traffic lights; everyone does it so if you can't beat them, join them. No one gives a sh!t anyway and your chances of getting caught is so slim that you can ignore them. This is a system wide problem in South Africa with everone complaing about the crime and coruption while they are speeding, ignoring traffic sign left, right and centre and bribing traffic cops. There is just no respect for the right way things should be done.

Thanks Dave thats why I asked these questions, as I have been doing my own work forever and always wondered about this. I just think we should at least know what the law is, even if no one will adhere to it.

BTW. the reason I do my own work is because come time to have something installed or fixed you are hard pressed to find any small contractor that knows an Amp from a kWh.

[Dave A]

I'm genuinely interested in what the legal position is exactly. I've found in my time in the electrical contracting game (NOTE: I'm the financial director, not the technical director) there is a gap between what the law/regs say and how they are interpreted. There seems to be too much reliance on habit and hearsay and not enough grey matter being applied.

For example, I'm told by my techs that additions to an existing installation must be done under the "control" of an accredited person, but repairs to an existing installation (replacement of components) can be done by anyone. Now I have serious reservations about this.

Another one is in construction. How many of these installations are actually being done under the "control" of an accredited person?

And what can be considered "control" seems to be another can of worms

I think these are excellent questions:
What exactly is the legal situation?
How is the legal position being policed/enforced?

There is an old adage that regulation that can't be enforced shouldn't be written as it penalises the honest and gives the dishonest an unfair advantage.

[douw]

Reg 5(4) states:

A registered person shall exercise general control over all electrical installation work being carried out, and no person may allow such work without such control.

"installation work" is defined:

(a) the installation, extension, modification or repair of an electrical installation;
(b) the connection of machinery at the supply terminals of such machinery; or
(e) the inspection, testing and verification of electrical installations for the purpose of issuing a certificate of compliance;

not much room for interpretation there.

So that leaves the "control" can of worms Dave mentioned above. That is what is not defined clearly in the regs. and that is what needs to be clarified, regardless of current convention.

[murdock]

I think the idea is to try to clarify the legal situation as opposed to what is actually happening...

there is no "legal situation in SA" hence my reply...the AIA try to act like they are some superior organisation but when it comes down to what is actually happening out they all the same...money talks and sh!ts walks.

i wear blinkers everyday and dont see or hear no evil anymore...just do what is required of me...get my money and move to the next project

[murdock]

to back up my statement about the electrical industry...this pic was taken in december 2009

[murdock]

only reason i didnt post the rest of the pictures...was because the installation was so dangerous that if someone was injured onsite they might turn around and ask me why i didnt switch of the entire site...being a master electrician i should know better...my question is why is the person who did the work not arrested???

unfortunatly i have got to that stage in my life...as i mentioned in another thread...i put blinkers and do my work...follow the taxis to the front then push in...why get upset just do as the africans do in africa.

[douw]

The only problem I can spot with that box is the missing quality control sticker on the inside of the lid. Other than that it looks pretty much like most other installations.

Do you think the installer will give you the drawings for that one?

But seriously though. We can't have that attitude forever. If the system breaks down completely and everyone realizes that there are no consequences in transgressing, your master electrician card won't be worth much to you. I can claim to be a master electrician too and take your jobs for half the price you quote from you, cut corners everywhere to save time, use substandard (read: wrong) materials, employ casuals at R40 a day, and still make more money than you. I pay someone else to issue the COC and dissapear. The crap circuit breakers I bought in marrabbastad only blows up two years later which fries that nice and thin surfix I plastered right into the wall, they go after the COC issuer who don't know where to find me anymore. By that time I made enough money to disappear into the next industry, which is just as unpoliced, and make some more money.

The point is that we as consumers and providers need to inform ourselfs and ensure quality from the bottom up. The situation as it is now hurts mainly the comsumer, but eventualy the industry will suffer also. This goes for the country as a whole, as all spheres are equaly affected by this.

But what to do? Clearly we won't be able to rely on the powers that be to resolve this any time soon. They are pretty good at legislation but dismal at enforcement, and I don't think that will ever change. I also don't think the model of complete government control is optimal anyway.

Industry self regulation will always be better. It is more efficient; the people involved are knowledgeable in their field, and if it is private organisations doing the regulation they have to survive fanancially. Healty compitition is the harshest umpire.

But I digress. Time for a new thread?

[Jacques#1]

I'll tell you what the problem is......

Everyone is an electrician!!!!!!!!

An example: I quoted a guy a few years back R200 to connect his stove for him (travelling to PTA from Kempton). This is really a good price as I could hear he is an elderly chap, and my fuel would cost me R?? (at the time). He said I am crazy as it is simply pushing three wires into a connector block with a piece of pipe etc..... he'll rather do it himself.

A better example? A guy hires backyard electricians do rewire his house. Why? Because they are cheaper, and they install rubbish. For the next year after the installation I had to go back to sort problems out. I would assist him with the specific problem ONLY, not allowed to touch anything else, this would cost him money. And as luck would have, after a period of time the next item/poor workmanship packed up.

Thing is, if you talk to guys they'll tell you that they do their own work, they don't need any electrician to connect a few simple wires, and if they really need a guy they get one off the street as he is dirt cheap. Once they move house and ask for a COC and get a quote for R20k+ because the entire installation is rubbish, they want to argue, kick and scream!! They then get the one or two bad apples you guys are referring to who sit in their bakkies and write the COC and the problem moves on. The next owner thinks all electricians are bad.

Sorry for carrying on, sore point, I am an electrician, but not one of "these electricians" people refer to. If you buy scrap expect scrap........and ask the guy for some reference on his qualification if you want, if it meant I can get more work, I would print mine on T-shirts!!!!

[Dave A]

I'll tell you what the problem is......

Everyone is an electrician!!!!!!!!

You're right, but you're only half-way there. The real problem is the real electrician can't compete with the so-called "electrician." The regulatory framework that has been put in place (officially to ensure quality but more realistically supported as a form of protectionism) is ultimately handicapping the legal contractor.

For example, 20%+ of payroll goes to "indirect benefits" as a result of the regulatory environment of the electrical contracting industry that these cowboys aren't paying. This is serious, as that extra labour cost cascades into every activity that falls under unbillable hours too. And you can only recover it by increasing your labour rate and material mark-up. By the time you're finished, the legit operator is probably functioning at a 30% disadvantage.

I've heard electrician after electrian (real ones) bemoaning that plumbers make more than electricians. This is the main reason why! Plumbers aren't competing against the "unqualified" and incompetent with a major financial millstone around their necks.

And for the most part consumers don't care about your papers and qualifications, or whether your employees are on a pension plan. As long as the electricity flows and everything works, in their eyes there's nothing wrong with the installation.

[Jacques#1]

That also makes sense.....

[murdock]

every labourer i employ is an electrician or so they say they are and wants to be paid accordingly...top rates...real qualification are hard to come by...copies of certificates are as bad as the work they do...

the one fellas certificates had all the same dates...borders where exactly the same which made me curious.

all i do is ask them to do a ka rating calculation for a single phase complex...eeeeish...never done that before...only tube and wiring and dbs...and as far as they are concerned thats makes them qualified electricians.

even a white youngster...so called electrician i employed was fired within a couple of weeks...he must have worked in his time supervising electrical cable pulling gangs...he was clueless when it came to practical work.

[123]

Hi Guys, glad i found this thread. Does this mean that a qualified electrician (1987) like myself are not allowed to do electrical work at any installation? Eg am I allowed to go out to a customer and do faultfinding on the control circuit of his star delta starter? Or install a new 4core cable?

As I read this EIR2009 I guess I am not allowed to do any electrical work, although I am a qualified electrician?

ps I only registered as a SPT to issue the odd Coc on residential houses. But now it seems to me that I am not allowed to work as an electrician, which is the only trade I have. Or does my trade means zero at this stage?