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Thread: The BEE issue

  1. #1
    Bronze Member Fanie's Avatar
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    The BEE issue

    I've briefly read a few posts regarding BEE and the trend seems mostly the same.

    I'm not BEE, not interested in it, won't register to become BEE either, I've been pestered with it, threatened and probably lost some work because of it.

    Bottom line is I spent years to have what I have, no government paid for what I know and the skills I have. I did it, me alone.

    So will someone please explain to me who the hell gives this government the right to tell me I must give away even part of what I have worked to have while others were not prepared to do anything !

    Surely after 17 years in power under the free ANC government where black people were favoured and had access to education there has to be these aspirant black entropeneurs brimming with skills and potentials who is going to flood the market with business. Where are they !!!!

    One problem I see is that most people think they are forced to become BEE. How can any one force this. If nobody became BEE then where would BEE be now. Non existant. You cannot lose business if you are the source.

    We have been experiencing HUGE problems with poor supplying from BEE companies. Something that has taken a week to manufacture in the 'old' SA now takes two months.

    Just today I had a talk with yet another company manager. The semi literate answers the phone, firstly unprofessionally, then when you respond in Afrikaans you get put through from one person to the next never to reach where you want to be. Or they just put you on hold. This is terrorism of the business and discriminating against me, and I have been experiencing it quite a few times, the business owner unaware of it.

    Well this is the thing that BEE does, it puts illiterate and uncapable people in positions they should not be in. If you think about it, it must be VERY humiliating for a person to be forced to do a job they cannot do !

    Ok I'm on a tangent again (usually does)

    The point is, if BEE creates such a big problem, why not just dump it and live without it. Nothing prevents you from employing capable black people if they are right for the job, you just don't have to employ or put up with uncapable and illiterate workers any more. I cannot understang why you would give your power to someone else.
    Regards
    Fanie

  2. #2
    Email problem KimH's Avatar
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    Hi Fanie,

    I can understand and probably relate to a number of the points that you have made in your post, however BEE is unfortunately a fact of business life in SA and rather than raging against the machine perhaps consider using it to your advantage.

    The Company I work for had no choice but to become BEE compliant and we have just been through our annual review. What I would like to do is give you a better understanding of how the scoring works - please bear in mind that ours is a Small Enterprise (turnover over 5 million but under 35 million per annum).

    There are 7 Elected Elements of which you need to choose 4 - the options are:

    1. Ownership
    2. Management & Control
    3. Employment Equity
    4. Skills Development
    5. Procurement
    6. Enterprise Development
    7. Socio-Economic Development

    Your first concern is 'giving away what you have worked so hard to build':

    Our elected elements are 3;4;5;7 - therefore the ownership and major controls within our business remain unchanged from when the 2 owners set up this business 14 years ago.

    Your additional concerns are the quality of staff and poor work output:

    I think it is unfair for anyone to assume that all 'black' people are incapable and illiterate - there is also no law that prevents a business owner from applying careful recruitment and selection processes to ensure the right person is hired the first time. Furthermore training and development of staff bear it's own benefits as well.

    When dealing with unhelpful employees at other companies, exercise your right to complain - business owners need to be made aware that their service, delivery, etc is not up to spec.

    A last thought - Embrace and give change a chance, find the opportunity and turn the negative to your advantage.

  3. Thank given for this post:

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    Fanie, I have had (and sometimes still do have) the same feelings and views as you have expressed. However KimH has given a most sensible reply.

    You are free to ignore BEE in your business. You will lose some customers, but should ultimately survive if you run a good operation.

    I have decided to simply think of it as a form of tax that one has to pay for doing business in SA. I have to pay a few grand each year for the verification and maybe have to do some admin around it. Just like VAT, PAYE, UIF, Income tax, SDL, COID, company audit and trying to sort out municipal account stuff ups.

    However I don't have to give any company control away. As KimH has mentioned, we simply choose sections that don't involve company control. If your turnover is under R5million, you don't even have to choose, you are already sorted.

    I even have to admit it may give me some positive results. Its made me look at what they want to evaluate and one section for example is training. This is something my staff should be doing anyway, but now its given me some focus by forcing me to look at it and stop procrastinating.

    I don't think you can blame bad service on BEE. Any half decent company will train their frontline staff properly irrespective if they were employed to satisfy BEE requirements or not.

    However you look at it, BEE is just not worthing getting stressed over unless your whole business involves government tenders and each point is critical. You have more important and influential things to worry about.

  5. Thanks given for this post:

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  6. #4
    Platinum Member sterne.law@gmail.com's Avatar
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    BBBEE will law will always cause debate.
    A few things to clear up -
    Nothing forces you to comply - unless you are a government agency.
    To say that the government has had 17 years to balance things out is some what harsh. Group Areas act was not the first and the only piece of legislation that discriminated. Legislation dates back to 1810 and some of it makes the Group Areas Act seem "nice" So to expect 200 years of wrong to be corrected in 17 is non sensical. By the same token it does not mean we should wait 200 years!!!!!!!
    There is no COMPULSORY element of BBBEE that says you must have Black ownership!!! You can score your points through other stuff, in fact a company should get at least 65% without hassle. Black ownership was/is the shortcut method and probably the biggest fault with the "system". It was for this reason that BEE was changed to BBBEE - to move away from top down to bottom up approach.
    It is this top down approach that leads to incapable people being in middle, senior and executive positions, which in turn leads to resentment and also means that those that are capable are cast in the same pot, some what unfairly.
    Company' s that have and are adopting the bottom up approach, that is spend time and money on the training, perhaps bursaries(which score spoints on social side) may not benefit as quickly but build a more solid and stable work environment that is sustainable.
    BBBEE is probably once agin an example of good intention and thought process but poor execution fueled by the quick fix mentality.
    Anthony Sterne

    www.acumenholdings.co.za
    DISCLAIMER The above is merely a comment in discussion form and an open public arena. It does not constitute a legal opinion or professional advice in any manner or form.

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    Site Caretaker Dave A's Avatar
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    I think what concerns me most about the OP is the implied connection between color and competence. The two are totally unrelated - the real connection is between training/education/experience and competence.

    When I was visiting Spain, I could not speak a word of Spanish and it did make things tricky. It certainly didn't make me any less intelligent.

    The OP doesn't like BEE. I don't like BEE. But as long as you frame competence levels along racial lines you're actually validating BEE's existence.
    The trouble with opportunity is it normally comes dressed up as work.

  8. Thank given for this post:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
    But as long as you frame competence levels along racial lines you're actually validating BEE's existence.
    Now thats an excellent point. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

  10. #7
    Bronze Member Fanie's Avatar
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    This has nothing to do with the old scapegoat 'racism' and the next that will be brought in here is the 'apartheid' excuse - (whatever that is). Why does someone always come up with the 'they are not ALL like that', the discussion isn't about what applies to each and every single one out there, but in general (same as blacks are not all bad, but neither are all whites good).

    Business has very little to do with your skin colour, I have to do with them all, and I do not feel I have to discriminate against any group.

    BEE is actually racist, by demanding so or so many people in a business (any and all) must be from this or that race group. Then why are black businesses only black and why aren't they penalised for not having a majority of the other groups in there... ? although I don't know of any self started and functional black companies... enlighten me.

    It sounds to me like the all black movements you get in SA and the USA - of which there are HUNDREDS, but if someone dares to start a white movement they are critisized as racists. What's wrong with this picture ?

    The problem is people are not employed on the basis of their abilities, but on the basis to qualify for the financial advantage. Start by trying to phone the city council and try to locate a capable person that can handle a problem.
    Phone private companies and just hear how their phones are answered. Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).

    The result is a poor quality employee that does not belong in a post other than making their presence 'legal'.You cannot expect government to function one way but the private sector has to operate another way.
    Why are competent whites still laid off so blacks can take their place - mostly a lesser capable person - or our services would not be in the state they are in - you will agree with me when your power goes off for an extended period of time.

    There is a reason why 8 million of the 12 million whities already left SA, and this is one of the reasons.

    You all seems to forget, or is not old enough to know what it was like before this lot took over.

    If I have to make a choice between having to deal with someone I cannot fire or do away with on the basis of his ethnic status -or live with the consequenses - I'll choose the consequenses each time. I just have to listen to the demands made on businesses by people who did nothing to it getting there to make me tatally allergic.
    Regards
    Fanie

  11. #8
    Bronze Member Fanie's Avatar
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    When I was visiting Spain, I could not speak a word of Spanish and it did make things tricky. It certainly didn't make me any less intelligent.
    In SA they would have made you receptionist to qualify for BEE !

    If you are not capable of doing a job then you must not be appointed in the post. There is a jealousy from blacks because white people have certain abilities. Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying. So why MUST there be black pilots ? Does it really matter HOW many white vs black pilots there are - and why does it matter ? There are many jobs that black people excell in, but I do not hear whites crying about it !

    the real connection is between training/education/experience and competence
    Absolutely ! If you go into a shop to buy something, do you expect the person who is going to help you do so in a sensible way or are you content with, after wasting your time, eh eh eh eish I will cal the boss kind of thing ?

    It does not matter if the guy in a post is green or blue - if he does the job best then he is in the right position. It does not work in SA unfortunately.

    I do not think the reason for BEE is to distribute work fairly, it is a one way valve only.
    Regards
    Fanie

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    Bronze Member Fanie's Avatar
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    To say that the government has had 17 years to balance things out is some what harsh.
    Well, the same excuses are still being used today that was used 17 years ago. In another 17 years time we will still hear them. Not sure what ground reform has to do with BEE.

    During the 'apartheid' years black people claimed they did not have equal opportunity to become what they can become.

    Now that they have, where are those that come out of the educational system, start businesses and flourish. 17 years is more then long enough for this to happen, in fact there should have been a bunch coming out there for a few years - unless it's going to take centuries !

    It has nothing to do with balancing things out. There is nothing to balance out. You take what is there and what is available and you build on that.

    This gov got a working (not perfect) infrastructure with everything in place but functional. It is currently being screwed up well enough that we are dumped into crisis after crisis after crises. BEE is but one of the tools to keep you buzy and keep you uncomfortable and out of what is really going on.
    Regards
    Fanie

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    Diamond Member AndyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
    Phone private companies and just hear how their phones are answered. Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).
    The last two or three times I got rained on I was wearing my springbok rugby jersey therefore it must be my springbok rugby jersey that causes it to rain. It doesn't always rain when I wear it but I'm convinced it has an effect on the weather most of the time.
    If you can see a hole in this statement you'll understand why I see a hole in yours. Just because you had bad experiences with service assistants who were black it doesn't follow that their skin colour is the problem or even that most black service assistants are incompetent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
    There is a jealousy from blacks because white people have certain abilities. Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.
    This sounds to me like you're claiming black people are biologically inferior and you're also suggesting that they know it and harbour ill feelings against white people because of it. I'm at least going to ask you to come up with some credible evidence to back up your opinion. In fact it would be great if you could show some evidence for these next two statements as well please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
    Why are competent whites still laid off so blacks can take their place - mostly a lesser capable person
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
    There is a reason why 8 million of the 12 million whities already left SA, and this is one of the reasons.
    _______________________________________________
    I am special and so is Vanash.
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