Going Green only for the wealthy

[adrianh]

I think that one has to be careful with the whole "going green movement" I think that one has to consider sensible saving vs "Fasionable Greening". We changed our lights to CFL and LED long long ago. The motivation for doing so was simply to lower our expendiature on electricity. One could save water by catching rain water and also by using grey water. I think that you have to be practical. It is not practical for me to spend R8k to save a bit of electricity in the hope that the saving will be recovered in 5 years.

[adrianh]

Now if you wanna talk about savings then look at cars. My one car is ultra green and the other somewhat green.

I drive a 1100 UNO. The car serves as a bus, lorry, tractor, garbage truck and even a tow truck. It uses practically no petrol, goes like a bomb and costs very little to maintain. It doesn't even have a radio, so I save on radio waves (ok, it got stolen in my driveway - The buggers climbed under the car and cut the battery cable). The other car is a 1.6 Opel Corsa - fuel consumption is good. (Ok, I just spent R2K on the clutch)

We are quick to look at spending R8K to save 50c a month on electricity while we drive a 4X4 5.6L V8...

Hey AndyD, what car do you drive?

[AndyD]

everyone seems to associate "going green" with saving money and focused on the pay-back period.

After looking at many options, ideas, the green band-wagon suppliers, etc, I am starting to thing that "Green" is a lifestyle choice related to saving the environment - it is not about saving a buck - it's all about caring for nature and giving the planet a chance ( now I'm starting to sound like a tree-hugger ).

Oooh you went a little fuzzy there for a minute Daveob but I think you're back now
For me it's about being economical with resources and not being lavish and wasteful. I do have concerns about the environment but I'm not a raving 'Greeny' by any means. The saving money deal comes hand in hand with efficient resource utilization.
With my particular efforts, I find it's just easier to set goals and measure the effectiveness of eco-friendly improvements by looking at how much they save on the bills. With electrical consumption the energy savings, carbon footprint savings, CO2/greenhouse gas emissions savings and the money savings are pretty much proportional. I suppose the other way would be to use one of those online carbon footprint tools but I don't have the time or patience to go that route.

So maybe going green really is only for the wealthy ( at least, definately not for the poor ).

I think it depends what level and your definition of going green. The poor would benefit from turning off unnecessary lights or using CFL lamps instead of filament or halogen. They may also benefit from installing a geyser blanket or not overfilling the kettle when they use it. I agree that some higher outlay systems would only make sense for the wealthy.

Saving on the utilities cost is for everyone, but it's not automatically "green".

I think this is another one that depends on the 'Green' definition but I understand what you're saying.

I'm not wealth, but I do care about our childrens future, and enough so that I would spend a bit to help make a difference.

Is this the right attitude ? Yes, well at least to me it is, so here goes a trip down the path least travelled ....

It sounds like we're in a similar position, I would be interested to hear how your solar heating pans out.

I think that one has to be careful with the whole "going green movement" I think that one has to consider sensible saving vs "Fasionable Greening". We changed our lights to CFL and LED long long ago. The motivation for doing so was simply to lower our expendiature on electricity. One could save water by catching rain water and also by using grey water. I think that you have to be practical. It is not practical for me to spend R8k to save a bit of electricity in the hope that the saving will be recovered in 5 years.

This sounds like a pragmatic approach but there's many people around who haven't even taken the basic, practical steps which don't involve capital outlay and save money from day one.
I know three friends who were convinced to put in gray water and rain water systems during the drought period in Cape Town a few years ago and all three systems turned out to be a white elephant. All three of them dumped the systems after less than a year and after spending thousands of Rands installing them.

Now if you wanna talk about savings then look at cars. My one car is ultra green and the other somewhat green.

I drive a 1100 UNO. The car serves as a bus, lorry, tractor, garbage truck and even a tow truck. It uses practically no petrol, goes like a bomb and costs very little to maintain. It doesn't even have a radio, so I save on radio waves (ok, it got stolen in my driveway - The buggers climbed under the car and cut the battery cable). The other car is a 1.6 Opel Corsa - fuel consumption is good. (Ok, I just spent R2K on the clutch)

We are quick to look at spending R8K to save 50c a month on electricity while we drive a 4X4 5.6L V8...

Hey AndyD, what car do you drive?

Lol, I nearly shed a tear for your poor Uno, sounds like it takes a beating.
I drive a newish 1.6 Nissan Livina (petrol) as a work vehicle and a 3 year old Renault Scenic Diesel for a family car. Wifey drives an oldish 1.3 Corolla for a runaround and also the Scenic. All my other company vehicles are 1.4i Corsa bakkies. I don't think we're going to get any green awards for our car choices but the Renault is particularly economical, (consistently less than 5.5l/100km) even with the air-con running. They're all practical vehicles, we do average mileage, we're not particularly shy about using the air-con ......or the radios:-)

[daveob]

I think it depends what level and your definition of going green. The poor would benefit from turning off unnecessary lights or using CFL lamps instead of filament or halogen. They may also benefit from installing a geyser blanket or not overfilling the kettle when they use it. I agree that some higher outlay systems would only make sense for the wealthy.

I know a few "not so well off" people ( including our once a week domestic helper ), and none of them even have a geyser. To wash with warm water they have to boil the kettle. So that got me thinking about doing some research on a small project that can be afforded reasonably easily by the 'employer' and which would make a huge difference to the lives of the family you decide to help :

I would like to source a reasonably priced container that can :
1. be used to store hot water from a copper / plastic tubing solar panel circulated via thermosyphon (sp?)
2. can be easily insulated to help retain some heat.

The initial thinking is to erect a small gum pole tower with the solar panel and tank mounted, so it is gravity feed. A toilet cistern style inlet valve would keep it topped up, and it would have a tap fitting to draw hot water from the tank. This could then be adapted to add a shower.

There would be no element. The thinking is not to create hot water 24 hours a day - rather to have a tank ( say, 50 or 75 liters ) of warm / hot water available when they return home from work each day.

I believe it could be put together reasonably inexpensive and would create huge benefit for an entire family.

Any input / ideas / pointer that anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, but I'm in tree-hugger mode today.

[daveob]

efficient resource utilization

Note to Dave_A : there's a potential caption for the new forum you wanted to add.

[adrianh]

There is a truth in "Going green is for the rich" The rest of us simply save what we can because we have very limited resources to start with.

The Green club is very similar to diets. People go on the latest fad diet in the hope that it would make them thin without going to too much trouble. Spend R10K on a machine, swallow a pill, but don't exert yourself too much. We want to diet and get fit by not inconveniencing ourselves. People want to be seen driving a Prius.

There are ways to save lots of money and save resources but with it comes inconvenience - Take a bus, train create a lift club - you buy the lawnmower and your neighbour buys the weed eater and you share - use one anothers skill and barter rather than spending money - grow food etc...

We are quick to save money by spending money without inconveniece,mut we are not so quick to make real hard differences - and yes I also speak for myself!

[AndyD]

I would like to source a reasonably priced container that can :
1. be used to store hot water from a copper / plastic tubing solar panel circulated via thermosyphon (sp?)
2. can be easily insulated to help retain some heat.

The initial thinking is to erect a small gum pole tower with the solar panel and tank mounted, so it is gravity feed. A toilet cistern style inlet valve would keep it topped up, and it would have a tap fitting to draw hot water from the tank. This could then be adapted to add a shower.

There would be no element. The thinking is not to create hot water 24 hours a day - rather to have a tank ( say, 50 or 75 liters ) of warm / hot water available when they return home from work each day.

There's no reason you can't do this with a slightly larger tank (c.150 litres) and if you go to town on the insulation you could still have hot water in the morning as well.

For insulation I would consider cladding the tank in high impact polystyrene isoboard panels, same as I used in my roof, they can be easily cut and shaped to fit. Armourflex all the pipework as well. You would need to make sure it's all closed cell insulation and not hygroscopic to prevent it becoming sodden in rain otherwise it will require painting or similar. Wet insulation is useless. I'm guessing you would need 100mm thick insulation and the pipework design would need to prevent water circulation or back siphoning during non-sunny times so all the heat won't be lost through the solar panel basically working in reverse.

I think anything copper in this application will be like a flashing neon saying 'steal me'. For a solar panel maybe consider one of those flexible swimming pool types that you can roll out on your roof. I only got close to one once but I think it was made from low density polyethylene which should make it cheap and fairly hardy. You could maybe hang it like a curtain around the pole or from a frame. It would certainly be better than a flat glass covered panel in windy conditions like Cape Town.

I'm already excited. There's no rush, just post on Monday with details on how your prototype performs:-)

[AndyD]

There are ways to save lots of money and save resources but with it comes inconvenience - Take a bus, train create a lift club - you buy the lawnmower and your neighbour buys the weed eater and you share - use one anothers skill and barter rather than spending money - grow food etc...

We are quick to save money by spending money without inconveniece,mut we are not so quick to make real hard differences - and yes I also speak for myself!

This is a valid point, but I see this kind of lifestyle as the next step and one I'm not sure I'm ready to take. I can make further improvements to my impact on the planet without foregoing the way of life which I'm accustomed to.
What you're suggesting is a complete change in lifestyle and even culture. Maybe my childrens children will commute on communal or public transport, not travel for pleasure, live in a small dwelling without extravagances, braai in a microwave and make the 'real hard differences' out of what might be absolute necessity by that time. Hopefully for them they won't miss what they never had....I for one plan to tan a few chops the old fashioned way tomorrow and to hell with the emissions.

[daveob]

There's no reason you can't do this with a slightly larger tank (c.150 litres)

Thanks, and I agree with you on this. I just want to do the experimental project on a slightly smaller scale first.

the pipework design would need to prevent water circulation or back siphoning during non-sunny times so all the heat won't be lost through the solar panel basically working in reverse.

OK. My understanding on the theory is that the water tank sits higher than the panels, and the feed goes from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the panel, and from the top of the panel back to the tank ( I don't think the re-entry position is as important as the cooler water feed from the tank to panel, as long as they not right next to each other ). The Thermosiphon effect will allow the cooler water to flow from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the panel, and as it warms, it rises and returns to the tank. When there is no sunlight / UV warming the solar panel, the water in the panel does not rise, and the coldest water in the entire cycle will drop to the lowest point, in this case the solar panel, where it will remain until such time as it again gets warmed to a temperature higher than the coldest water in the tank, and the circulation current starts up again. So during this 'no warming' time, there should not be any circulation, and the warm water would remain at the highest point, in the tank.

I think anything copper in this application will be like a flashing neon saying 'steal me'.

Agreed. I am planning a trip to a few stores to look at the temperature range on some tubing, as well as the connectors available for joining them.

[SilverNodashi]

@daveob,

What kind of panels would you use, and what type of storage take do you have in mind? I'm interested in a similar setup and would like to keep the costs to a minimum as well.