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Thread: Foreigners occupying local jobs?

  1. #81
    Platinum Member pmbguy's Avatar
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    I tell you what... I have yet to hear an employer say his Zim guys don’t work. They are educated (the one good thing Bob did) and have good work ethic. They not here to screw around, they have hungry mouths to feed back home. If by virtue of their talents and hard work they outperform some local labour its fair competition.

    Some may argue its bad for SA and some would argue its good. Yes they take jobs, but they infuse SA with good labour, this makes our own workers look over their shoulder knowing they must work harder having some competition around.

    I do believe we should still have measures in place for exactly how many are legally allowed to work in SA, but the illegal ones will still come in no matter what, you would have to build a huge wall/fences for decades building it up... maintenance... security and then they just pop on tubes. Build the Navy up coastal guards etc etc, just look at the US so how would we fair. Keeping them out won’t work so looking at the advantages the situation has to offer is the next move.

    If he is legal and the best candidate I will hire him. No ifs or buts about it.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. – Charles Darwin

  2. #82
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    Long term massive immigration is not sustainable.
    Also foreigners *cough* sometimes create those jobs by investing capital in said country.
    But don't worry the "Bee" requirements help those out. Although there are exemptions if you have the SA gov't take a stake or something, it does happen.

  3. #83
    Email problem JanChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyppokagain View Post
    Long term massive immigration is not sustainable.
    Also foreigners *cough* sometimes create those jobs by investing capital in said country.
    But don't worry the "Bee" requirements help those out. Although there are exemptions if you have the SA gov't take a stake or something, it does happen.
    Hi, There is a big difference between investing in a country, managing that investment in that country and someone who just accepts employment in that country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmbguy View Post
    I tell you what... I have yet to hear an employer say his Zim guys don’t work. They are educated (the one good thing Bob did) and have good work ethic. They not here to screw around, they have hungry mouths to feed back home. If by virtue of their talents and hard work they outperform some local labour its fair competition.

    Some may argue its bad for SA and some would argue its good. Yes they take jobs, but they infuse SA with good labour, this makes our own workers look over their shoulder knowing they must work harder having some competition around.

    I do believe we should still have measures in place for exactly how many are legally allowed to work in SA, but the illegal ones will still come in no matter what, you would have to build a huge wall/fences for decades building it up... maintenance... security and then they just pop on tubes. Build the Navy up coastal guards etc etc, just look at the US so how would we fair. Keeping them out won’t work so looking at the advantages the situation has to offer is the next move.

    If he is legal and the best candidate I will hire him. No ifs or buts about it.
    Totally agree - its actually quite funny that so many people feel this way. One wonders the reason for this ? Perhaps what I said in the beginning of this thread about the white guys (20-30) being so full of shit is right hey.

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    Platinum Member desA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig Whitton View Post
    Which link are you referring to? (I feel like I am missing something very obvious here ...)
    Indeed.
    In search of South African Technology Nuggets(R), for sale & trading in South East Asia.

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    This is an oldie, but just found it again and thought I would post it. 11 "rules" given to some school kids by Bill Gates.
    It is so relevant in all aspects.


    Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!
    Rule 2: The world doesn't care about your self-esteem.
    The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
    Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 p.a. right out of high school.
    You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
    Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
    Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity.
    Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping:
    They called it opportunity.
    Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
    Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, washing/ironing your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were.
    So, before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
    Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers but, life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have *abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer - BUT
    *that doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.
    Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters.
    You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF.
    (Do that on your own time.)
    Rule 10: Television is NOT real life.
    In real life, people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to work.
    Rule 11: Be nice to nerds.
    Chances are you'll end up working for one.

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  8. #87
    Diamond Member Citizen X's Avatar
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    Non National workers without the necessary permits/paperwork: The current legal position in South Africa

    1. The employee/employer contractual relationship is still governed by our Common Law. Incidentally, so are all contracts in South Africa;
    2. One of the requirements of a valid contract is that the conclusion, object and purpose of a contract must be lawful[silly example: you can’t include in a contract that an employee is allowed to skip red robots to deliver goods as fast as possible];
    3. There is a difference between protection of non- nationals [illegal workers] without paperwork in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa (Hereinafter the Constitution),[1] and protection in terms of the Labour Relations Act 66 of 1995[2] (Hereinafter the LRA);[3]
    4. McGregor et al astutely uses 2 cases to illustrate, namely Kylie v CCMA & others 2008 9 BLLR 870 (LC) and Discovery Health Limited v Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration & others 2008 29 ILJ 1480 (LC);[4]
    5. In the first case Kylie is essentially a prostitute alternatively a sex worker[whichever is the more appropriate term in SA], that was employed by someone[escort agency or pimp whichever is the more appropriate term in SA]. The Labour Court ruled that Kylie was not entitled to the protection that other workers were entitled to under the LRA and could not pursue an unfair dismissal case[as the contract of employment verbal or otherwise was unlawful].[5] However the Labour Appeal Court took a different stance: The LAC held that the rights enshrined in the Constitution literally applies to ‘everyone.[6]
    6. Here is where sometimes the law may appear to not make sense when in actual fact it makes perfect sense[case law], a sex worker has the right to fair labour practices because section 23(1) of the Constitution,[7] states Everyone has the right to fair labour practices.
    7.McGregor et al points out that a sex worker will also have the right to fair labour practices because of the employee/employer relationship. However, since the contract of employment is illegal, it cannot be enforced by the court or the CCMA i.e. unfair dismissal cannot be pursued on an illegal or unlawful contract.[8]

    8. Non- National worker without a permit: In Discovery Health Limited v Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration & others 2008 29 ILJ 1480 (LC),[9] Prof McGregor uses this case to teach us that that when an employee has a valid employment contract but no valid work permit, such an employee cannot pursue an unfair dismissal claim.[10]
    9. The point of departure[excuse the pun] is section 38 of the Immigration Act 13 of 2002[11] (Hereinafter, the Immigration Act), provides as follows:

    38. Employment
    (1) No person shall employ-
    (a) an illegal foreigner;
    (b) a foreigner whose status does not authorise him or her to be employed by such person; or
    (c) a foreigner on terms, terms and conditions or in a capacity different from those contemplated in such foreigner’s status.
    (2) An employer shall make a good faith effort to ascertain that no illegal foreigner is employed by him or her or to ascertain the status or citizenship of those whom he or she employs.
    (3) If it is proven, other than by means of the presumption referred to in subsection (5), that a person was employed in violation of subsection (1), it shall be presumed that the employer knew at the time of the employment that such person was among those referred to in subsection (1), unless such employer proves that he or she-
    (a) employed such person in good faith; and
    (b) complied with subsection (2), provided that a stricter compliance shall be required of any employer who employs more than five employees or has been found guilty of a prior offence under this Act related to this section.
    (4) An employer employing a foreigner shall-
    (a) for two years after the termination of such foreigner’s employment, keep the prescribed records relating thereto; and
    (b) report to the Director-General -
    (i) the termination of such foreigner’s employment; and
    (ii) any breach on the side of the foreigner of his or her status.
    [Subs. (4) amended by s. 47 of Act 19/2004]
    (5) If an illegal foreigner is found on any premises where a business is conducted, it shall be presumed that such foreigner was employed by the person who has control over such premises, unless prima facie evidence to the contrary is adduced.
    10. An ‘illegal Foreigner,’ still has the right to a salary etc as this a the right to fair labour practices..

    As a layman to basically everything, my advice is don’t take a route that will cause your business to be in trouble at a later stage…it is as it is..


    [1] Constitution

    [2] LRA

    [3] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21

    [4] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

    [5] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

    [6] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

    [7] Constitution

    [8] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23


    [9] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

    [10] McGregor M et al Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23


    [11] Immigration Act
    Last edited by Citizen X; 21-Aug-14 at 07:43 PM.
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  9. #88
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    Vanash - it's totally on topic - and relates to Local people specifically as well !

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