Who's in Charge?

[Leecatt]

I had a query the other day "Who do I go to for help if I suspect that my Electrical certificate is fraudulent?"
I know that Mark Palmer was associated with the Department of Labour and offered a service and assistance in this regard but he has since resigned this position.
So who do the dissatisfied customers turn to now?

My answer was to phone the DOL and her reply was, "I cannot get them to even answer the switchboard!"

So what is the answer?
Are we working in a completely unsupervised industry now?

[ians]

You learning fast Leecat.

[Leecatt]

You learning fast Leecat.

To be honest I think the writing is on the wall regarding a valid Electrical Certificate.
The public has virtually no avenue of recourse now.
I think that being involved in the issuing of these documents is eventually do one's company more harm than good due to the distaste it is already causing.

[Dave A]

To be honest I think the writing is on the wall regarding a valid Electrical Certificate.
The public has virtually no avenue of recourse now.

Look, it is the Department of Labour's responsibility to ensure there is adequate enforcement, and every now and then they do follow through. And as is the nature of these things of course, when they do, all hell breaks loose. More often than not, it doesn't make the headlines though.

I think that being involved in the issuing of these documents is eventually do one's company more harm than good due to the distaste it is already causing.

I gently disagree with that. In industries where there is no policeman, reputation becomes a critical element in a client's decision making process when it comes to selecting a service provider.

My experience is over time the same effect kicks in with industries where the "official policing" is not particularly reliable - recognising the fact that a person being registered/accredited is not a reliable indicator of actual competence and quality, people start paying close attention to the reputation of the service provider.

[ians]

The department of labour has proved that all electrical contractors are a bunch of idiots who are so gullible that they will even pay a fee to some department which has absolutely no powers to enforce any laws, not only because they are incompetent and uneducated but because they actually don't have the manpower to enforce any of the laws they try make you abide by. So what they do is give one of the contractors powers and let them fight with each other. Mark Palmer come to mind...so does AIA and so forth.

I cant believe (or should I can say) that there is over 1000 contractors out there allowing a small minority of people dictate to them, so long as you bend over and allow it, it will just become like the etoll, shut up and pay.

[ians]

That there is exactly where the problem begins, give the contractor the opportunity to fix his illegal installations. Like the case I had a while back with DEEs electrical in Durban. He did the installations a couple of years ago. The company replaced all the plugs in the house with 4x4 double socket outlets, they used PVC boxes and because there was no earth wire (because the piping was used for earth continuity) they just didn't install earth wires, creating an extremely dangerous installation. What they should have done is secure a lug with a pop rivet to the metal box with a 2.5 mm earth tail which should have been taken into the PVC 4x4 box and connected to the new double socket outlets, a loop impedance test to verify the earth was good enough and if not, new earth wires installed back to the DB

What should have happened is his license should have been suspended immediately, for negligence. Then he should have had to submit his job book with every project they have done in the past year,random checks by the DOL (well not the DOL, someone who has the qualifications to inspect) should have been carried out to verify that he is competent to issue COCs. If there where any other illegal COCs issued or he was found to be negligent on any other projects, his license should have been suspended until he had re written his installation rules then, have had to go through the same process as a new application to get his license back again.

By doing this people will think twice before dropping off a bunch of unskilled labourers to carry out electrical installations, which will also increase the rates people charge so it is a win win situation for all legal contractors issuing legal COCs. Chris Greager once said to me " but how would you like it if we did it to you", my reply if I am endangering other peoples lives by not performing my duties correctly then then they must do what must be done.

What people don't realise is by using unskilled people to work on electrical installations it not only creates a dangerous environment for the public but also creates a dangerous environment for other electrical contractors or companies working on the same site. I had a situation where I was asked to install and connect a supply for an aircon unit. Dolphin coast electrical where also working in the same building. When I pulled in the supply cable I had to remove the DB cover and keep it off for testing purposes including load tests which meant I have to reenergise, I connected my cable and when I switched on I noticed a couple other breakers also switched off, lucky for me I have enough experience to know not to just energise breakers which are switched off even if I might have bumped them off while removing the cover ( I also noticed the tape over the breaker before I removed the cover, common practise for unskilled people). I walked around the building to find some semi skilled (they had no form of identification or elconop cards so I didn't know how semi skilled) people connecting plugs in power skirting. When I enquired about how they had isolated the circuits they showed me that they had switched off the breaker and put a piece of insulation tape over the breaker to indicate it was isolated, the problem was that the cover with the tape was now on the floor, so I had to put the cover back on to see which circuit not to switch on. What if I had switch on and electrocuted these semi skilled, I would have been the one in the crapper not their boss, because I should have known better being the skilled artisan.

[ians]

Elect 1, I had the same issue when I went to the DOL, they don't even have a copier, clearly the office is just a front to make money. Ask yourself a simple question in Durban they are located in a small poky office in most expensive building in Durban...The Royal hotel. makes you think doesn't it ? I was told to go to the post office. The reason they don't have a copier is because I don't think the person who is taught step by step what to do knows how to use a copier, not part of his job description.

I got a person to call someone else in the same building who gave them a bullshit stories to allow me to get a copy done in another department, went down 2 floors and got my copies and had them certified by the same person who did the copies for me.

It is a scam.

[ians]

This is one of the reasons...you can do a 8 hours course on gate automation and become a qualified technician in 1 day, which entitles the company to charge more per hours for their "technicians" than an electrical company can charge for a master electrician, or better still a camera installer, you don't even need any qualifications and you can right a hole in the customers backside so big that he will have to use his entire Christmas bonus to install 4 cameras, which by the way only cost a couple hundred rand not thousands of rand (not talking about IP cameras) and the cable is just as cheap. The "technician" is normally just some person who has a little more experience than yourself, believe me you don't need to be a brain surgeon or even an electrician for that matter to install cameras, so you have to ask yourself why do they get paid twice the rate...mmm.

The day the DOL starts prosecuting registered people for illegal installations and illegal COC's will be the day the electrical contractor will start charging a living wage. It is just too easy for any Jacob, Julius or Tutu to do electrical work and get away with it. No matter how much electrical contractors squeal at meetings and on social media nothing is going to change until all the contractors stand together and say F&^* it enough is enough, but until such time get smart and do what the Africans do in Africa, who cares about earthing a couple plugs, it means less profit because you have to use an earth wire.

[Yuri]

I heard there are only 3 AIA members registered currently.Only the AIA's evidence can be used agenst you it court. The owner of the instolation must give them permission to inspect it

http://www.independent-inspectors.co.za/index.html

[ians]

To date, I have not had one customer go through with an investigation. They always tell me just to fix the f%^&* up. The sad part 80 % of electrical installation that I check are not legal after an COC is issued.

You want to know the joke, the people who make out they would never do a kak installation or sign off an illegal COC are the biggest culprits.

It seems if you are "connected" you can do what ever you want. I had a customer send me pics of a new installation completed and signed over in a multi million rand domestic property. My customer requested I fly to Cape Town to sit in at the meeting, because the contractor and Cape authorities where trying to bully them into accepting the crap illegal installation. Eventually the customer got me to find a reputable company in the Cape to fix the mess.

I really enjoy those meeting where nobody knows who I am or what I do and only present in the meeting to verify if the contractors is trying to baffle with bullshit or if they are telling the truth. The last meeting I attended was rather entertaining, some people must think everyone is stupid. The contractor ended up having to fly teams down from JHB to carry out around R50 000 worth of fixing of a brand new machine installation. Sometimes it pays to get your ducks in a row and make sure that everyone attending the meeting is in fact just a bunch of mechanical engineers.