220v Downlight DIY Installation

[bergie]

getting the popcorn out. i dont see how we can deny information. we cant check everyones credentials before posting. the forum is here to help.

[Leecatt]

@ Leecatt

Having just re-read your (and other's ) posts on this subject, I have to say that I felt the tone of your reply offensive, degrading and presumptive.

"If someone has to come and ask questions on an open forum then it is plainly obvious that they do not have the skills to proceed successfully.
"

I am not an idiot. Please don't think I am. I may not be experienced in this / your field, but that does not define me as dense.

Personally, I am a programmer ( by profession and as a hobby ), business owner (15 years) , can program PLCs, micro-controller devices in various languages, I am (reasonably) successful, work around 4 hours a day, from home, overlooking the sea, and earn an annual income with 6 zeros at the end ( before the decimal place ).

The fact that you may, or may not, have any of the same skills that I possess does not affect how I view your capabilities and is not relevant to me, nor should my skills be relevant to you.

I asked what I thought to be an intelligent set of questions, and expected to receive positive feedback and information.

To assume that I am cash strapped and to assume that I don't already have (more than one and larger than 50cm ) flat screens is presumptive.

In short, perhaps in future you should limit replies to positive, relevant to the facts available, and accurate.

Your response could have been something along the lines of :

Dave, Written advice can be used in a court to sue someone. Should you give advice directly to someone on this forum and something happens because of it then you may be held criminally responsible for that action, indirectly albeit but responsible nonetheless. Something as serious as telling someone it ok to wire your own house just do it this or that way can have devastating consequences for the contributor.

I would suggest that all posts of advice of this nature should be made with a disclaimer, along the lines of "this is my personal opinion and should not be taken as professional advise, recommendation or guidance in any manner or form whatsoever"

I have noting else of relevance to say ... end of post.



If you didn't intend the offense that I took in your reply, then either the Ritalin I just started taking has some bad side effects, or your forum etiquette could use a little polishing.

I trust that if / when we again cross paths on the forum, gentlemanly behaviour and etiquette will be used.

Regards
Dave

Dear Dave
Glad to hear your doing well.
You are right, the Ritalin is most definitely having some side effects
Respectfully yours
KMA
Lee

[Leecatt]

Mo original intention for joining this forum was to be able to discuss the regulations with like minded individuals in an effort to brining some understanding of the regs into the industry as we all battle.
I believe in the regs as much as I believe that there are electricians out there who are contributing positively to this industry.
Now I find I am offering advice so that unqualified people can take the law into their own hands and I find my self encouraging DIY electrical installations, which it is exactly the opposite of my original intent.
For the record I make my bucks out of folk who DIY because I do not do any installation work, only repair work.
Somebody tell me where the eject button is please

[Dave A]

This is why it's so important to play the ball and not the man, folks. Could we please stop taking insult where (at least originally) I doubt any such insult was intended.

Mo original intention for joining this forum was to be able to discuss the regulations with like minded individuals in an effort to brining some understanding of the regs into the industry as we all battle.

Terrific! It's the primary purpose for having the forum in the first place and I'm stoked to have you here (along with all the other folk who contribute to the success of this forum).

Now I find I am offering advice so that unqualified people can take the law into their own hands and I find my self encouraging DIY electrical installations, which it is exactly the opposite of my original intent.

Then don't do it.

Technically it's Ian that has offered the advice. You're "merely" pointing to the risks in that - and it's fair comment worthy of exploration. And that's all I'm trying to do here.

Somebody tell me where the eject button is please

With all due respect, that doesn't help explore or resolve the issue. I took your point on board and I'm testing my own preconceived ideas on the subject. And now you want to bail?

C'mon, let's lay out the issues and thrash this thing out. And perhaps this is the first question that really needs a definitive answer -

Given the nature of the regulation in the industry, is there no "right way" for a homeowner to DIY additions or changes to their home's electrical installation?

[daveob]

: Could we please stop taking insult where (at least originally) I doubt any such insult was intended.

Sorry DaveA. I didn't see it that way. And I also got a PM from another member about it as well, so was reasonably convinced that I was not dreaming it.

:Terrific! It's the primary purpose for having the forum in the first place and I'm stoked to have you here (along with all the other folk who contribute to the success of this forum).

Yes, Leecatt really does seem to know it all, so I agree a valuable contributor to the forum and it would be a sad day if she decided to 'eject'.

:Technically it's Ian that has offered the advice.

and to Ian, my sincere thanks for the positive and constructive reply, to the question I asked. From you, I have learnt a great deal, and I am grateful for that learning.


As Dave A's signature says : They'll tell you "Quit now, you'll never make it." If you disregard that advice you'll be halfway there.

Unfortunately, I think this thread has strayed too far from the intended purpose and there must be easier ways to get the information and advice that I seek without having to fight for it. As in life, I manage my time and energy extremely well and, as in the physical world, with wasting both like in this case, I simply choose to leave the room.

To Dave A, apart from this, I must say Thank You for the Forum and the learning that I have received from it over the years. The impact that you and this forum has had on so many over the years is certainly far greater than you could imagine.

[ians]

How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there avaialble for "all" to see.

If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.

What i should do however is maybe get a signature which will have terms and conditions of the info i post on this forum, NOT, Dave will nuke the kak off his website faster than i type, if he feels i am out of line, as he has done in the past

You could always report me to the DOL, what a waste of time that would be, i havent killed anyone , yet .

The sad thing is that unfortunately there are still people who are proud to be electricians, like i was once apon a time, who take the time to read the regs etc,i take my hat off to all of you guys and thank you for your positive feedback. Unfortunately i just dont give a damn anymore. 30 years in this industry and all i see is it falling apart by the day. The days when i was still wiring houses with galvernised threaded conduit, i was proud to tell people i was an electrician, nowadays when people ask what i do, i tell them i am a carpenter and build stuff out of wood.

When you climb in the roof of peoples houses and you cant see the difference between the alarm wires and the electrical installation you know soemething has gone terribly wrong with this industry. When people want to do a diy electrical installation i can understand why, chances are they are likely to do a better installation than some of the so called "electricians" out there.

By the way an NTC3 certifcate, doesnt mean you are a qualified electrician, seems everyone who has N3 thinks they are qualified electrician, or should i say according to the people i have interviewed for electrical jobs.

[Dave A]

How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there avaialble for "all" to see.

If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.

I don't think so either, and not just because the "information is already out there."

The issue of industry regulation to achieve standards is one of my favorite chewing points, primarily because it is nowhere near as simple a subject as most people think.

Over the years I've developed a personal belief that much like "the pen is mightier than the sword", education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards. This theory is based on two foundations:

• Most people "do the wrong thing" out of ignorance
• Informed people makes better choices

I happily concede that some people wilfully "do a bad job" when they should know better. That's why education isn't a total solution - industry regulation does have a role to play in achieving standards. However I really believe regulation cannot succeed in achieving quality without first making sure the information on how to achieve those standards is out there and easily accessible.

But perhaps there's a solid reason why this doesn't apply to information about domestic electrical installations?

[wynn]

education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards

Unless the monkeys running the zoo revert to the lowest common denominator being the standard of the education ???

[ians]

It is quite simple, if you drop off an qualified, unskilled person on a site to perform a task which requires higher qualifications, then yes i agree, education is the key, but you first need to enforce the law, ie...nail the contractor who is leaving unqualified staff on site, which will prevent them from doing it and force them to send the staff for the correct training, then look at improving standards.

All staff on site should be required to wear a card type identification, with relavant qualifications cleary displayed. This will prevent people like myself, who work in factory enviroments having to work amongst labourers, who are left on site to connect DBs and machines. It is not my responsibilty to report these contractors, there should be a safety inspector on site at all times, checking that people are wearing safety belts, checking people are doing work according to their qualifications indicated on their ID card. We are all issued with these cards in the elctricial industry, so no, there is not an addtional cost to the customer to provide us with these ID cards.

There are way tooo many people with eleconop 1 grading, because no further training is required to become an eleconop 1, to go any higher requires training in a training centre and then testing. This is just not happening for what ever reason, too busy to send staff, too expensive, or just because you have to pay the people more for the higher grade. It could be that contractors are get away with leaving the lower grade staff on site and can charge higher rates.

I believe that if the DOL and factories engineers where doing their job correctly and clamping down on this type of behavior, we could start seeing more realistic rates being charged by electical contractors. It wil force contractors to use the correctly skilled staff as and where required, and in turn improve the ridiculous rates which elctrical contractor charge per hour. We must be the lowest paid contractors in any industry. Motor vehicle companies charge, R500 + per hour, you can get an electrical company to do work for as little as R 250 per hour.

[Sparks]

I support educating the public at large however, to each his own trade. A quick rundown of regs applicable to one section of an installation is one thing but there are other factors to consider. Having joints in an enclosure with glands at all the entry points does not mean everything is hunky dory. There are other factors to consider too. Load, circuit length, voltage drop, earthing, protection.... There is a lot of sound advice offered on this site, which I am glad to see, but it needs to be stressed that the regulations being enquired about also stipulate that only suitably qualified people work on installations. This is to protect lives. With my experience I am not surprised that some people do not trust "contractors" to adhere to the regs. "You get what you pay for" has two sides to it. You could be paying, as in most cases, for the company "name" which was inherited years ago and no longer delivers the standard of work which "earned" the name in the first place. At least some people make an effort to ensure the safety of their families. Having the DIY certified after doing it is one thing, finding a "credible" certifier is another. I take my hat off to people prepared to stand up for their families and wish them luck finding credible "certifiers". If it costs a bottle of whisky for the COC, you can just as well take it with when your stomach wants to go. This is the New SA we have to get used to it.

An after thought: There used to be an advert on TV for carpets. The company founder stated that there are two types. The one type has his name on it. My work also has my name on it. My COC is for free, it is to certify that my work is as it should be. My time gets paid for. It irritates me when people ask how much I charge for a COC.