Minimum force being used.....the more things change the more they stay the same...

[adrianh]

http://www.news24.com/Multimedia/Sou...otage-20120816

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bfb_1345136218

[Nickolai Naydenov]

So what are you tying to say Adrian? Have you been in a riot, have you experiences what thousands of people are capable of doing, do you know what they do, do you onow if they got firearms? Have you considered the fact taht more than 500 policeman were killed in the line of duty last year alone? I'm a police reservist and unlike you I have been in these situations, I have been shot at, attacked an what not! When you experience that I'm sure you will remove your snotty opinion! It is very easy to judge for you, but I'd love to see you in their shoes, I guarantee that your underwear will change colors, so please next time think before you amake such comments especially when you haven't got a clue of what's going on!

[adrianh]

What I am trying to say is that the police murdered those people. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever. I am sick and tired of people justifying blatant stupidity, the whole lot of them should be locked up.

And by the way; I couldn't care less whether you are a police reservest or whether you are Jesus Christ himself, you have no right to call my opinion 'snotty'. I have the right to express my opinion without being personally attacked by you. I have zero regard for the judgement of the police force and their cohorts especially when they overreact and make sh1t and then justify their terrible actions while sitting right up on their high horse.

If you think that insulting me is going to make me have more respect for the police or police reservests then you are sadly mistaken. Your insults only add to the disgust that I feel for those who are supposed to protect us.

Let me just state my opinion clearly for the record; the police put themselves in a position where they got cornered, they were threatned and overreacted and ended up shooting a number of men to death. The shooting occured due to their INCOMPETENCE

so please next time think before you amake such comments especially when you haven't got a clue of what's going on!

My friend, let me spell it out for you I - N - C - O - M - P - E - T - E - N - C - E

....please let me know if I should make it bold and put it in a bigger size....

[Dave A]

Kinda alone with my thoughts right now. Absolutely shocked.

[Blurock]

This is sickening! I have to agree with Adrian that the police were incompetent in the way that they have handled the matter, which has dragged on for a week at least. However, Nikolai also has a point. You have to be in that situation to appreciate what happened. An uncontrolled mob is very hard to stop, especially when they are armed (where did they get the guns from?) and determined to kill.

They were not demonstrating, they were out to kill. They have already killed 2 policemen and 8 of their co-workers earlier in the week. It is very hard to reason or negotiate with people who do not want to listen and then resort to violence to get their way.

This is once again a reflection on our leadership, political and business leaders should take a hard look at themselves.

[adrianh]

There is no excuse. They are supposed to protect all citizens, even if those citizens become unruly. The only term that rolls around in my head when looking at that footage is this: "It was like shooting fish in a barrel"

[BusFact]

There is no excuse. They are supposed to protect all citizens, even if those citizens become unruly. The only term that rolls around in my head when looking at that footage is this: "It was like shooting fish in a barrel"

I don't yet know all the facts in this case but a charging mob of armed strikers doesn't leave you with too many options. There is a limit to this protection. An example would be a shoot out with armed robbers.

I'm going to save my opinion for when the sequence of events becomes clearer, but there are many instances where there can indeed be excuses.

[adrianh]

There is no excuse, they got themselves ia a corner and they shot their way out of it, yes maybe that was the only way out but they should not have put themselves in that position in the first place. It's like exposing your queen during a chess game and then overturning the entire table when your opponent tries to take the piece.

[Nickolai Naydenov]

Again incompetent opinion Adrian. Here's a situation, were received an arrmed robbery complaint on the police radio, we raced to the scene as soon as we stopped few houses before and got on foot the two occupants of the getaway vehicle started shooting at us, so what happened we retaliated and killed them both, if they had respect for the police they wouldn't have shot at us. You feel that the police is useless but let me tell you there are many capable and honest people in the force that you don't give credit to because you can't look further than your own selfish self. In this case of mob where there are thousands of people armed with pangas, firearms, shambocks and what not and you expect the police to do nothing, two policeman died yesterday and why because they put their lives on the line and you know for who, for some selfish, unthankful people like you! You obviously have never experienced what an angry mob is!

And just by the way it's a free country and let me remind you one of the constitutional rights we all have is freedom of speech and just like you I make use of it so yes it is a snotty opinion you have and that will be the case until you look further than your backside.

[ChrisNG53]

People riot. They do this all over the World. They riot violently.
There are certain rules that bind the State in these situations. They do NOT include a "kill or be killed" culture/approach, as bad as things might be. The Sate is NEVER AT WAR with rioters. It has to bring the riot under control -- not win a war. This is because the State is obliged to protect a citizen's right to life, even if that citizen is a criminal --- serial murderer ....

It is this simple (if matters involving death can be simple): ---
1. killing is only justified if unavoidable;
2. Killing is NOT a form of riot control.

Looking at the video footage where a whole group are mowed down with gunfire these sacred tests are obviously NOT met in that -
a) the police are not in formation to meet a charge by rioters; (charging is pretty standard for rioters)
b) apart from some head protection they are not in full riot gear;
c) in particular they are NOT equipped with anti-riot shields, absolutely essential for dealing with armed rioters;
d) when the rioters charge it is met instantly with "deadly force";
e) e.g, the first volley of gun fire should have been directed ahead of the rioters so as to force them to desist;
f) even when the rioters where fired on a question arises as to whether or not fire was directed so as to wound, and not kill, i.e, directed at lower parts of the body?

It is pertinent to point out that the police had already fatally disadvantaged themselves when a policy decision was taken before, NOT to use rubber bullets.
This mind boggling decision means that the ONLY bullets that then could be used were lead bullets that are designed to KILL NOT STOP/WOUND!!!!

Presumably the new Police Commissioner reviewed and approved of this idiotic policy decision.

What happened is the culmination of a long saga of incompetence and very bad macro management culture. I had protested the appointment of Bheke Cele; i had protested his "shoot to kill" culture; I had protested the militarization" of the police force; I had protested Phiyega being appointed on a "cadre deployed" basis. I was condemned by just about everyone as a ranting fool.

[Blurock]

There is no excuse. They are supposed to protect all citizens, even if those citizens become unruly. The only term that rolls around in my head when looking at that footage is this: "It was like shooting fish in a barrel"

In a perfect and civilised society this statement would be true. Unfortunately and sadly, these events have once more confirmed that we live in a 3rd world country. It has also put our country in such a bad light in the international forum. It is really sad that conflict have to be settled with violence.

I also agree to police incompetence in that the training provided to new police recruits is not what it used to be. The quality of leadership is also not what it used to be. There is however two sides to the coin. Until you have faced a mindless, barbaric mob out to kill and destroy everything in their path, it is hard to put yourself in their position.

Maybe the mine management was also to blame in how they conducted negotiations and HR in general. The strikers definitely had an agenda, but I will reserve judgement until all the facts have been investigated.

[ChrisNG53]

In a perfect and civilised society this statement would be true. Unfortunately and sadly, these events have once more confirmed that we live in a 3rd world country. It has also put our country in such a bad light in the international forum. It is really sad that conflict have to be settled with violence.

I also agree to police incompetence in that the training provided to new police recruits is not what it used to be. The quality of leadership is also not what it used to be. There is however two sides to the coin. Until you have faced a mindless, barbaric mob out to kill and destroy everything in their path, it is hard to put yourself in their position.

Maybe the mine management was also to blame in how they conducted negotiations and HR in general. The strikers definitely had an agenda, but I will reserve judgement until all the facts have been investigated.

I think you are on point... However the law is that the Sate must PROTECT NOT TAKE LIFE unless this is unavoidable .. even if the swine involved is a serial killer.
So the State is obliged, with its considerable resources, that we pay for, to gear itself up for such situations --- including situations of extreme violence.
As I have posted just the fact that the police had divested themselves of rubber bullets means that the whole operation was fatally flawed -- from the moment they arrived.

[adrianh]

@Nickolai Naydenov : ag sorry man, now I see why you are so upset...ok I'll quickly fix it for you. My opinion on the matter must have been a tad unclear. Those trigger happy chappies suffer from a severe case of:

...wait for it...

...ta da...

I - N - C - O - M - P - E - T -E - N - C - E

[vieome]

<rant>
<conspiracy>
The police and rioters mere pawns in the game of power. When they start calling for your head take off their heads.

But the end result, the true genius of the plan, is the fear. Fear becomes the ultimate tool of corrupt third world governments. In this society where people are willing to protest for anything, what better way to show people before an election that they can march against a picture of the spear, but they can not march against the spear.
</conspiracy>
</rant>

[vieome]

The police simply took a few extra dolphin kicks.