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Thread: drawing or picture copyright

  1. #1
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    drawing or picture copyright

    i approuched a few companies this week to disccus making up templates for me...they all requested cad drawings...or told me there would be a fee for making up the drawings...i dont have a problem with that...so i have decided to get someone to make up all my template drawing in auto cad.

    now heres the catch...what i am concerned about is one of the companies which i give the drawing to...so they can quote..taking my drawings if i dont accept the quote and making the items themselves and selling the product for a slightly cheaper price...considering there is no company in this country making these items...i will be the first...what concerns me is that they could make and sell the item cheeper than i could because they have the machines already...if it takes off then i will invest in my own machine...but for now i will have to get them to make the templates for me...

    i started this week making templates myself but i found that it is extremely difficult to get both sides exactly the same...after about 9 attempts...i am still out 2 or 3 mm...if i use a cnc machine it will be perfect...i also dont want to carry on working with mdf in my workshop...the stuff makes a flippen huge mess and the dust gets in everything...i have enough templates ready to take up a whole mdf sheet.

    how could i prevent a company from using my drawings if i dont accept their quote.

    the interent makes it so easy to copy other peoples ideas...i had it happen a couple of times now where i build something...load pics and 2 weeks later there is exactly the same product for sale...with a few minor mods...so now i do the same thing...if i see something i like on the net i download it copy it...scale it print it out and copy it onto a template and walla.

    i dont know too much about patents...but i have heard that you only need to change one same thing and it is not longer regarded as a copy of a patent...is this true?

  2. #2
    Moderator IanF's Avatar
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    Murdock you want someone to spend time preparing drawings on spec then if you don't pay them for it they have no rights to it and do not get paid. That is not fair!
    It should be quite easy to get exact dimensions in most programmes. I would look at something like google sketchup and do it yourself there. There should be tools that mirror the one side exactly the same to the other side.
    They way I understand copyright is that it belongs to the Author who can sign away those rights to employers and customers for payment.
    Ownership of the copyright in a work generally rests in its author(s), unless the author(s) agree(s) in writing to assign the copyright. "Author" is specially defined in the Copyright Act, but generally means the originator(s) of the work..........
    Copyright in the industrial sphere

    Drawings of a technical nature (eg. engineering drawings) and works of craftsmanship of a technical nature (eg. prototypes) enjoy copyright in South Africa, not only against reproduction of the drawings in 2-dimen*sions but also against reproduction of the works (eg. machines, spare parts) in 3-dimensions. However, if the copyright owner introduces 3-dimensional reproductions to the market, which "authorised" reproduc*tions are works which primarily have a utilitarian purpose and are made by an industrial process, their copyright protection against copying the authorised reproductions (so called "reverse engineering") is lost.
    Link
    I would suggest if you can't do the drawings you get someone to do it for you pay them and ensure that you get all the copyright assigned to you. It sounds like you will need the drawing and computer files anyway.
    Only stress when you can change the outcome!

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    Diamond Member Blurock's Avatar
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    Have a non-disclosure and non-circumvention agreement signed. See that all detail and conditions have been included so that there are no grey areas. It is important to have everything in writing.
    Excellence is not a skill; its an attitude...

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    ian you didnt read correctly...or i wrote the thread ass about face...anyway...i understand that the companies must charge for making up drawings...just felt it was waste to pay all 6 to do the same drawing...so i got 1 person to do the drawings in auto cad and paid that person...then will be sending the 1 drawing to all the companies to quote.

    i would have thought there was fee per mm to cut with a laser or cnc router...if i gave them the drawing...but it seems not...lets say...if your machine cuts 5 metres per minute on mdf...and you have a full sheet to cut lets say 17 or 20 metres...your cost per metres would be xxx amount regardless of the shape...thats why when i took the actual template to show them...they all insisted they need a drawing...mmm and that got me thinking.

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    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    I do commercial laser cutting and I refuse to sign non-disclosure agreements. The problem is that when you sign the agreement you do not know what the customer is going to present you with. The customer may present you with their version of a circle or a design that they just copied off the internet. I have a vast library of designs and I will not limit myself to signing a document when I don't know the exact details of the drawing....catch 22...

    When you ask for the quote then do the following:

    1. Tell them that it is for something toatally different to what it really is.
    2. Do 2 drawings having different parts (you can even add strange looking parts to really confuse the issue), get quotes for the one from one company and the other from a diferent company. (Anybody who knows what he is doing in Autocad will be able to split the drawing into two after the drawing is complete)
    How easily someone is offended is directly proportional to how stupid they are.
    ~GS Elevator

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    thats what i was thinking...getting different comapnies to do diffrent parts...it would just be so much easier getting one person i could trust to do all the work...one of the reason i say that..is because if i cannot keep up with production i want a cnc routing company to make the whole product so that i can collect package and deliver...without having to drive around...the amount of money we are taking per unit is only around R60- R70

    the reason i am thinking cnc router...because the laser will cut many sheets at a time...time...but i will need to clean them up and route the corners...maybe you can enlighten us adrian...do you have to clean up the product once it is cut...we are talking about work...mdf or plywood...one of the laser companies indicated that it is not that easy to cut plywood...because it breaks...is this true.

  7. #7
    Diamond Member adrianh's Avatar
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    Low power lasers i.e. 70W, like the one I have is great for cutting various materials up to about 3mm thick. MDF is fine provided that you get the correct wood. The local stuff is crap because it doesn't cut well. There is a type of MDF that is yellowish in colour that doesn't char or make a mess at all. You must remember that a laser doesn't cut perfectly straight, think of the laser as a cone of light with a draft angle of between 1 and 3 degrees. This becomes very noticable when low power lasers are used on thick materials. Lasers also don't like to cut multiple sheets at the same time because the material is either burned or melted. I don't like working with 3mm plywood because it tends to warp (MDF doesn't)

    CNC has its upsides and downsides. Most machines, CNC or laser suck the workpiece down onto the table via vacuum. This makes it difficult to cut in multiple layers simultaneously. If you were to cut multiple layers you would have to create tabs joining the parts to the board so that you can clamp the board down...but not you will have to seperate the pieces from the board by hand. CNC is also very messy in that it creates a lot of dust which has to be cleaned off the workpiece.

    No laser or CNC company will assemble the product for you, remember, they charge out at anything between R300 & R500 per hour to pay back the cost of the machine and infrastructure.

    The biggest thing I found is that one needs to look very carefully at the design of product. One could sometimes simplify a design so that it clips together easily. When you do this then it becomes easy to assemble. Esentially you would get a flat pack from you CNC or laser company that you put together like a jigsaw puzzle. One should also consider the material used, you may find that 2mm UHI might work better than MDF or whatever.

    Just shout if you need help. I spend about 20 hours a day doing exactly what you need. I am involved with the strangest projects already, so I can assure you, I have no intention to sell anybody elses stuff.

    To give you an idea of the stuff that we already busy with:
    1. We make the trains as you know, we've just developed a locomotive that is doing quite well and we are expanding on that range.
    2. I've just quoted a company to make scale models (in 4 different scales) of the armoured cars they manufacture.
    3. I've been given plans of an entire conveyor system to quote on for a 1:50 size scale model.
    4. We make lots and lots of MDF stuff for a lady who makes mosaic kits and sells them into the craft shops.
    5. We did 2 runs of 100 each designer toys for two competing artists.
    6. I'm meeting with a lady on Tueday to lasercut cloth for her Elle magazine creation.
    7. We make models for Rovos Rail.
    ....
    The list goes on and on...
    How easily someone is offended is directly proportional to how stupid they are.
    ~GS Elevator

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    thanks for taking the time to respond with all that info...i could buy a similar product from china...but i have to buy a min. of 5000 at a time...for now i will create employment here in sa until the unions step in them retrench everyone and buy directly from china...hopefully by that stage i will be moving the kind of volumes required...

    so sad that in this country...we think like this...i remeber in the past you would build a company and hand it down...or sell it....nowdays you build it to a point where you can dump it and start importing...and wonder why the unemployment rate is so high...

    the customer will assemble the product...it will be sold in kit form...to save in labour and all the cost that go with it...and reduce the number of machines and equipment required...reducing insurance costs....size of premises...etc etc

    the product cant be less than 16 mm thick...and the type of wood will vary and there will be a combination of laminated or veneered or solid wood for the people who want a quality product...i was only going to do a quality hand made product...but as we all know 90 % (a thumb suck figue)of people would rather buy a "good looking" piece of crap than a hand made good quality product...and the beuty about it...you can sell the crap for good money...the proof is in the veneered stuff you see in the shops...even the joints are done using plastic corners...no more dovetail joints etc...i suppose trying to do a dovetail joint in mdf wouldnt last a day...i am suprised the dont make a piece of plastic you can stick over the corners to make it look like a dovetail.

    as i get to a stage where i need large volumes...i will modify the design slightly to make it fit together like a puzzle...i would then need to have the whole product machined for accuracy.

  9. #9
    Moderator IanF's Avatar
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    Murdock,
    We also have a laser but would not be able to cut 16mm wood. We have cut 8mm. What Adrian says about the angle of the beam is correct. We have cut jigsaw puzzles and the pieces do not fit snugly like a normal jigsaw.
    The reason for the drawing is that some machines do slow down when cutting angles and curves which will affect the time.
    Just make sure that whoever did the drawings knows that the copyright is yours.
    Only stress when you can change the outcome!

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    thanks it looks like a cnc router is gona be the way to go.

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