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Thread: The case against Christian public holidays!

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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    The case against Christian public holidays!

    Now this looks like a job for me so everybody just follow me, cuz we need a little controversy... Attention Please" feel the tension soon, here's my 10 cents my 2 cents is free!”
    This is not a religious debate! The question on the continued existence of the Christian holidays Easter and Christmas respectively are now in the public interest. The Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL) are inviting arguments in favour or objections against. Any member of the public may submit arguments in favour of these holidays or objections against the continued existence of these holidays. Arguments in favour or objections against may be sent to: Sipho Mantula: sipho@crlcommission.org.za and cc: chairperson@crlcommision.org.za and ceo@crlcommission.org.za
    1. I am a Christian man, an evangelist at heart. I stand firmly AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS OF CHRISTMAS AND EASTER! These are nice holidays but they are certainly not holy days! I will submit my objections against these holidays!
    2. Of the 7 billion on people on this planet, I’m at an immediate advantage in articulating my opinions and criticisms on any aspect to do with Christianity. My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lord’s servants I’m the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. I’m part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I don’t have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply don’t enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this ‘most important Christian list,’ My assertions on Christian public holidays are beyond reproach and not even a professor of theology will successfully be able to rebut anything I put forth. Think you can? Try me! One of my favorite hobbies and past times is extensive Bible Study! I don’t know the whole Bible but I’ve got the holy spirit to guide me and that is more than sufficient for any undertaking in His Majesties service!
    1. Firstly as perhaps most importantly the basic tenet of Christianity is that you cannot force anyone to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that person must come willingly and not by duress. It’s actually against my religion of Christianity to force my religion on anyone! Similarly, if it’s common cause that we cannot force Christianity on anyone then it only follows logically that you cannot enforce Christian holidays alternatively perceived holy days on anyone. On the birth of the Messiah, this is something we need to commemorate every single day and not one on day only! On the cross of Calvary, we need to remember it and it’s significant every single day!
    I’ll get right to the essential gist of this matter:-
    2. The ignorance of the Church from it’s inception: The Church always believed that the Earth was stationery and further that the Sun revolved around the Earth and further that the Earth was the center of the universe and further that all other planets revolved around the Sun. A dispute occurred in the 17th century: Galileo correctly asserted that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the Sun revolved around the Earth.. He argued that the scriptures themselves were actually not wrong at all but that rather the interpretation of such scriptures was very wrong. The Church only officially corrected this misconception in 1992!!!!!In 1992 the Pope officially confirmed that the Earth was not stationary and further that it was the Earth which revolved around the Sun and not the Sun around the Earth. In 1992!!!! I need to say this again! Only in 1992!!!!
    3. My simple but very effective hypothesis: If one is a mathematician that it follows logically that such a person knows a great deal about mathematics and further that such a person has a mathematics textbook and is very familiar with this mathematics textbook, similarly, if one is a Christian, then it should also follow logically that such a person knows a great deal about Christianity and further that such a person is very familiar about his primary book of instruction which is the Bible;
    4. I’m still laying foundation! Bear with me! I will unpack the argument against the Christian holidays of Eater and Christmas so adequately that not even a professor of theology would has written a million books will successfully be able to find any fault whatsoever with my assertion!
    5. I’ll start with common sense first before I proceed to the actual arguments! In the entire new testament Jesus Christ, the messiah did not even state once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! The apostle Paul, who wrote most of the new testament, did not say even once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! Both Jesus and the apostle Paul observed the Sabbath on Saturday starting from sunset Friday. Both never revoked the Sabbath of Saturday in favour of Sunday not even once in the entire new testament, not even once, not directly, not indirectly and not even tacitly or by necessary implication.
    6. I am of the belief that Jesus Christ my Lord, my saviour my liege, my master, was indeed born. For me the fact of his birth is as clear as night follows day! The assertion that he was born on the 25 December is a lie from the pit of hell! He was born, but he was definitely not born on the 25 December. The Bible itself does not state that Jesus was born on the 25 December. In fact there is very strong circumstantial evidence in the Bible that indicates that He was not born on the 25 December. Was He born, Yes, without any doubt whatsoever! Was He born on 25 December, definitely not!
    7. The 25 December was already recognised as some form of public holiday alternatively day of celebration in the Roman Empire since 500 BC! It’s very unlikely that Jesus Christ was born on 25 December. (Luke 2:7-8). Biblically we are acutely aware that the shepherds were taking care of their flocks at the time of the Birth of Jesus. In Israel in December it’s Winter and also rains in winter in Israel.. Simple common sense will tells you that no shepherd past and present will attend to sheep at night on a cold Winter’s nigh when it’s raining! In any event there’s be next to nothing to graze on in Winter. Common sense again tells you that as a shepherd, you don’t want your sheep to die, the idea is to have them healthy for slaughter or sheering for wool. A shepherd will actually ensure that his sheep are in some form of a sheltered enclosure in winter. He will feed them in this sheltered enclosure. Just as a test, our Winter in South Africa is very mild in comparison to the Winter in Israel, lets hire 20 sheep and get you to look after them in some veld, preferably the informal settlement in Lenasia from 18:00 to 5 the next morning for about 20 days. Let’s see if you and your sheep will survive.
    8. The census that Jesus parents had to attend according to Roman Law(Luke 2:1-4). Let me tell you a little something about the Roman empire, they were meticulous administrators and they furthered their own interest. A census in the Roman empire had many purposes, it was not just for population counts, it was also to establish a register of tax payers! Throughout their history(go check), the Roman Empire never conducted a census in Winter as it was impractical and would actually defeat their own purpose of counting people and getting their details in the shortest possible time and getting those people to go back to go do their work and further the interests of the Roman Empire. 2000 years ago, there was no cars, we had no etolling, so the roads were in a very poor condition. People had to either walk or travel by donkey or horse. The temperatures in Israel at that time in Winter was below zero. It’s freezing cold today, here in lenasia when it 14 degrees, I can’t imagine myself walking in this cold for some 20 km! Imagine travelling by donkey when it’s -10 degrees for some 40 km! I refer you to our own South African Census 2011. You didn’t have to go to own town of birth as Jesus parents were obliged to do under Roman Law at that time. You had a census employee come to your door, this was between 10 - 31 October 2011.In South Africa Spring comes upon us in September, October and November. It was mid spring when we held our census. It was very warm during October 2011. Even our government as ignorant as they are would never had census workers conduct a census in July in mid Winter!
    9. Seasons: In South Africa these are our seasons: Summer: December, January and February, Autumn(AKA fall overseas): March, April and May, Winter, June, July and August, Spring: September, October and November. So our census took place in mid Spring in October 2011. NOW. In Israel these are the seasons and their periods: Summer 21 June to 22 September, Autumn(or fall) 22 September to 21 December, Winter :21 December to 20 March and Spring 20 March to 20 June. So 25 December was and is Winter in Israel. Israel is situate 29°-33° north of the equator, and is therefore a subtropical region. Heavy snow usually falls in Israel between December and March.
    10. Biblically the most accurate indication of when Jesus was actually born is in Autumn AKA fall in certain countries. The reasoning(luke1:24-36). Firstly, Mary is the earthy mother of Jesus and Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist. “24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25 “The Lord has done this for me,” she said. “In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” 34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
    Continues..next post..word count restriction!
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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Continued from previous post....
    1. Okay, so we now know based on what the Bible says that John the Baptist mother Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit i.e when the angel Gabriel went to her and told Mary that essentially she will become pregnant despite Mary’s assertion to the angel that she was a virgin. Right, simple logical tells you that if you can establish when John the Baptist was born, you will at the very least be able to establish the season or time of year when Jesus was born give or take 2 weeks. John the Baptist father is none other than the Biblical Zacharias, the Bible clearly tells us that Zacharias was a priest. One must appreciate something very simple about the Jewish people. They has a calendar, they had predetermined holy days and religious practices, they were diligent in observing their holy days and carrying out there religious practices diligently and perhaps more importantly on time i.e. when it was the predetermined time for observance of a holy day or religious practice, they done just that, on arrival of that time, they observed that day or they carried out that prayer.(Okay, a bit off the point, just a bit, Isaiah prophesied crucifixion 700 years before the Romans invented it!!! Also, 700 years before the birth of John the Baptist, Isaiah prophesied his birth by writing “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.”)..back to the point...In the book of Luke the Bible tells us that Zacharias was a priest serving under the priestly division of Abijah. Historical and Jewish religious calculations indicate that this burning of incense ‘when Zachariah’s division was on duty,’ was around June 14 to 20 of that particular year.In was on or about this period of his temple duties when the angel basically informed Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth who was Mary’s cousin would have a child, the angel further told him that he was to name his child John and ensure that this child never consumes alcohol. So this religious activity of burning incense and offering prayers in Israel by Zacharias who was a priest under the priestly instruction of Abijah takes place somewhere around 14 June. In Israel Spring is between 20 March to 20 June. So this prayer takes place in Spring in Israel. Also, the angel did not tell Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth is already pregnant but rather that “ Your wife will bear you a son and you are to give him the name Jon.”Luke 1: 13.” Now in Luke1:23 the Bible says, “ When his time of service was completed he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant.” His time of this kind of priestly service would have ended on or about 20 June(Still spring in Israel but the very end of Spring) : In Israel Summer is 21 June to 22 September. It’s therefore safe to say that John the Baptists conception occurred somewhere around the end of June(Summer in Israel). So we do the obvious we add nine months of pregnancy, namely Elizabeth’s pregnancy with John the Baptist. This brings us to the end of March. So John the Baptist was born on or about 30 March in Spring in Israel as Spring in Israel occurs between 20 March to 20 June. We know that there is a difference in age between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ by 6 months. Luke:26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.” So if you add 6 months to the end of march brings you to the end of September when Jesus Christ was most likely born. In Israel Autumn(or fall) is 22 September to 21 December. So the season that Jesus Christ was most likely born in was Autumn or as it is known overseas Fall in September but definitely not on 25 December!!!!!!!





    2. Some background to the Zacharias connection: “King David (1 Chr 28:11-13) divided the sons of Aaron into 24 "courses" or groups (1 Chr24:1-4) to create an orderly schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed forthe year. Once these courses were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence each group would serve in the Temple (1 Chr 24: 7-19). Each of the 24 courses of priests would begin and end their service on the Sabbath for a tour of duty of one week (2 Chr 23:8,1 Chr 9:25).The Jewish calendar begins in the Spring (Nisan), so the first course of priests (Jehoiarib)would serve for seven days. The second week would then fall to the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the festival of Passover, when all priests would be present for service, sothe schedule would resume with the third course of priests (Harim) on the fourth week. By the tenth week, since both Passover and Shavu'ot had occurred, the 8th course of Abia (Abijah) would be called for temple service. By means of this arrangement, after the 24th course was completed, the cycle of courses would repeat, so that in a given year each groupof priests would serve in the Temple twice per year (in addition to the three major festivals).There are several reasons to believe that Yeshua was born during the Fall, in particular,during the festival of Sukkot. Among the reasons cited are as follows:1. Yeshua's cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover.a. John's father (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the templeduring the course of "Abia," the 8th course of the year.(Luke 1:5, 1 Chr 24:10)b. Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nisan but both Passover and Shavu'ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias' service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan(May/June). c. It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty(Luke 1:23-4). Therefore, John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly afterthe third Sabbath of the month of Sivan (i.e., late Sivan).d. Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nisan 15). (Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet(Matt 17:10-13, cp. Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a special cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah for the festival.)2. Yeshua was conceived in late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot.a. Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36).Note that the "sixth" month refers to Elizabeth's pregnancy, not the month of Elul (cp. Luke 1:36). b. Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the conception of Yeshua (note that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)). c. From the 15th day of Nisan (John's birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri - the first day of the festival of Sukkot. If the day of his birth were the first day of Sukkot, the day of his circumcision would be the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Sinchat Torah, which, like the first day, is a day of sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again from Bereshit (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of "fulfillment" of the Torah.The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how he had come to fulfill theLaw and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17-18).”

    3. Constantine: For the first 300 years after the excruciating cross at Calvary there was no organised Church. It was largely an under ground movement because Christians were been severely persecuted even put to death! Now to illustrate, even in the 21th century Christians are persecuted in countries such as Chine. So they do what the early Christians done, they have an under ground movement. Now, if you want to learn a very important lesson in what the early Christians went through and I strongly encourage you to learn this lesson, it’s going to make you a better person1 Just please do me this little favour, go to China and see if you can celebrate easter or Christmas there! See if you can build a nice little nativity scene1 At the very least you’ll get a beating of your life1 And this will be a very good lesson because you will finally be able to appreciate what the early Christians faced! Back to the point, during this first 300 years of the Church there was no celebration or acknowledgement of both Easter and Christmas! Just try to prove me wrong, I dare you!
    4. There were two periods to the early Christians, the apostolic period, when among others the Apostle Paul led the church and the post apostolic period, this was the period in which early Christians were severely persecuted and therefore there was no early church. The Roman persecutions of Christians ended with a man called Emperor Constantine in AD 313 and in AD 325 was made the official religion of Rome. Rome as at this time worshipped many different God’s and had many holy days that they observed!
    5. On 17 February Ad 380 the Edict of Thessalonica was decreed, this was when God the father, son and holy spirit was officially acknowledged and accepted.
    6. The etolling connection!!!! To understand Constantine as I understand him, you simply need to put your self in his position at that time which was a difficult position to be in. If etolling could cause such a public uproar, how much more would a situation where Constantine tells his people some 12 days which are public holidays on which you worship many, many, many other Gods will be taken away from you! You see it was bad enough that he made Christianity the official religion, but it would have caused public demonstrations if he took away the Romans existing holy days and holidays, so all he done was to change the name of the existing holidays into so called Christian holidays/holy days. There was no Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas, there will never be any Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas!!!!!
    7. I can provide you with no less than 10 Roman holy days that coincided with 25 December but I’m just going to mention 1: The festival of Dies Invicti Solis, the Dayof the Invincible Sun, on December 25. This was when Romans worshiped the SUN not the SON. So they simply then said it was the day on which the birth of the son of God would be commentated.
    8. Okay, to surmise, for the first 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ Christmas was not observed or celebrated anywhere! It most curtained was not observed or celebrated in Rome. In fact Christmas cannot even be traced back to the early teachings or regular practices of the early Christians for that first 300 years.
    9. EASTER: I have tons to say on how Easter is not Biblical, how Easter was not observed at all by the early Christians and how Easter has no Biblical basis whatsoever. I’m going to save this for another post, because there are a few things I feel that I simply have to saying this post!
    a. I believe in tithing , it’s Biblical, what I don’t believe in is many pastors unjustifiably enriching themselves and their immediate families from the Church offering! The message of many pastors remain, money, money and more money! Certain pastors will even incorporate the 6 keys to business success in a sermon, it goes something like this, there you have it church, that was key 1, now wait for it, it’s gonna be good, wait for it, key no 2 to a successful business is coming! Funny how Jesus never had a sermon entitled ‘the 6 keys to business success,’
    b. There is only one requirement to becoming a Christian. It found in the book of Romans, it’s simple and very straightforward. If I use a military term, ‘draft,’ if you want to be drafted into the kingdom of God, if you want to become a Christian, it takes only few seconds to be drafted into the kingdom of God and become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of Jesus Christ. It’s simple, if you confess with your mouth and you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was raised from the dead you will be saved!!!You don’t need no church piano playing in the background, no church music, no pastor, no nothing, you simply have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour and you will be saved!
    c. The Bible does not say, God resists sinners, the Bible says, God resists the proud. In fact Jesus calls himself a ‘ friend of sinners,’ Biblically good people don’t go to heaven but believes do go to heaven. To be a believer you have to sincerely say that prayer found in the Book of Romans that you take you about 10 seconds to be officially conscripted and officially recognised by God!
    d. There are many church services that I’m aware of that many pastors won’t have the guts to take part in! My favourite church service, ‘the stone you to death while you preach church service,’ Steven in the book of ACTS kept preaching until he was literally stoned to death. Another favourite service, the boil you in oil church service, okay, I’ll confess, the Bible does not indicate that the Apostle Paul was boiled in a large pot of oil but historians such as Josephus do give such indication. Invitation to certain pastors, care to take part in the boil you in hot oil church service???


    Coming soon...valid reasons why Easter is not Biblical at all!!!




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    Email problem Phil Cooper's Avatar
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    I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.

    Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.

    Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?

    Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.

    Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!

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    Gold Member Singhms's Avatar
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    That is an interesting suggestion Phil, I never taught of it that way. Sort of a compassionate leave system. Max 2 days per person and you chose which religious days would be most important for you to take the days off for!
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    Diamond Member wynn's Avatar
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    Aah Vanesh I see you are losing your religion again (; ))

    Lets have one long weekend per month on Mondays except for Good Friday, any other Friday that will suite other religions to be considered otherwise always a Monday.

    That will bring the number of holidays down to 12 instead of 14.

    That way fit appropriate holiday to appropriate religion or vice versa and everybody else gets a break once a month with the least economic upheavel.

    The reason a Monday, a lot of people work on a Saturday so any public Friday holiday will result in absenteesim or people taking the Saturday as a holiday.

    The reason 'Easter' is when it is is because it is the same time as the 'Jewish Passover' which probably supplanted some other ancient religeous or vestigial calendrical observation. Same as Constantine replaced the Winter Solstice with Christmas.
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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    Aah Vanesh I see you are losing your religion again (; ))
    The reason 'Easter' is when it is is because it is the same time as the 'Jewish Passover' which probably supplanted some other ancient religeous or vestigial calendrical observation. Same as Constantine replaced the Winter Solstice with Christmas.
    On the contrary Wynn! This is not a religion, this is the life! Incidentally I have researching this very matter for the past 12 years. When it emerged in the public interest in the form of objections I simply had to revisit books that I already have and tons of ebooks!
    My point of departure is a simple one:Do we want truth or a lie! Now, my primary point of departure remains the Bible itself. Jesus in John 4:23-24 provides that the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Bible does not tell us even once to celebrate both Easter and Christmas. These are man made traditions. They cannot be reconciled with the Bible, with anything Jesus said and with anything the Apostle Paul said! Now, what Jesus says in Matthew 15: 6 -8 is quite damning! “ Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your traditions. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you” “ These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain, their teachings are but rules taught by men.”
    The word Easter actually only appears once in the King James Bible. This is in Acts 12:4. All the most reputable and leading Biblical scholars have since corrected this. They provided substantial justification for this much needed correction(Too onerous to elaborate on here!). In short, Easter in the Acts 12: 4 in the King James Bible has it’s origins in the Grekk word ‘pascha,’ which translates as ‘passover.’ All modern and reputable translators have corrected this. If you refer to the NIV Bible Act 12: 4 mentions Passover.
    Now, one must be aware that the Bible itself discourages religious debate, arguments about law and genealogies and it quite correctly states that this will only bring about division and strife. My Grip is actually with the Church itself. Instead of officially correcting these misconceptions and lies, they inadvertently promote it1 My official status as ‘the lowly and despised things of this world,’ puts me in a privileged position to take on Bible students, pastors, professors of theology and my fellow Christians with the intent of promoting the ‘truth,’ aspect of the ‘true’ worshiper that Jesus talks about.
    Incidentally I proudly testify that the cross of Calvary did indeed take place, that Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior was indeed raised from the dead and further that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was born as the messiah. I’ve never disputed this , I’ve always promoted it has historical truth!
    We have the unfortunate situation where many Christians are of the opinion that Christianity is about going to church on a Sunday, celebrating Easter and Christmas and in fact this has nothing to do with Christianity. Praise and worship of our Lord. The Bible is very clear in the books of Hebrew, we must engage in continual praise and worship. Praise and worship for 30 minutes in church on Sunday don’t qualify as ‘continual praise and worship.’ I’m by no means suggesting that people should not go to church, they should.
    On Easter and in particular the crucifixion as depicted in the movie ‘The passion of the Christ,’ It’s very misleading in that it does not give a holistic picture. It encourages Christians to feel sorry for Jesus and say things like ‘look how they murdered Jesus.’ This is not what really happened, Jesus was never murdered, Jesus himself said, that He willingly gave himself up for this very purpose and even sarcastically stated at times(in my own words) ‘Didn’t you read what the Bible said?, Didn’t you read what Moses and Isaiah and David said about what must happen to me?” He came to fulfill a prophesy and in doing so do us a great favour! For all those people who cry buckets of tears, feeling sorry for Jesus when they watch the passion of Christ, I proudly refer you to what Jesus himself said, (Luke 23: 27-29)after he was flogged and beaten and was literally carrying his cross on his way to be crucified. He said this to his mother and other women crying buckets of tears as they followed him: “ A large number of people followed him, including women, who mourned and wailed for him. Jesus turned as said to them, “ Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourself and for your children.” Consequently, the Jews were striped of their citizenship in AD 70 and the Temple of Solomon was destroyed for the second time. They indeed had reason to weep for themselves and for they children. Jesus doesn’t want you to feel him sorry, in fact, He feels sorry for you! No Christian can take part in the passion of the Christ. That is why Jesus said, “it is finished!” It is finished means just that , that it done to completion. Jesus could not die with unforgiveness in his own heart, this is why he said, “Father FORGIVE them for they know not what they doing.” The sufferings of the Christ are a reason for us to rejoice, not to cry! Now, If you believe in a resurrected Christ, then why are you crying for what happened to the Christ before he was resurrected? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever! Jesus came into this world especially for the cross, He proudly walked towards it, He was not afraid to die, He desired nothing more than to fulfill the prophesy! It was not unreasonable for those women to have cried, it was simply very unnecessary!
    We have a current situation where we have the ‘popcorn Christian,’ they sing amazing grace ion Sunday in Church like they angels from heaven then they live like hell from Monday to Saturday! The people that should be in church, ‘the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ are not in church because the people in Church don’t want to sit next to them! Under the category of ‘the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ you have prostitutes, alcoholics, very poor people from informal settlements who haven’t bath in days simply because the 1 bucket of water they get from the water tank is used for drinking water, cooking and washing. They don’t have nice cloths (wear you Sunday best) simply because they can’t afford to buy nice clothes, the criminals etc. Jesus said, ‘I came for the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ it’s very noteworthy that it wasn’t prostitutes, poor people, alcoholics and criminals who were primarily accusing him. The Bible is very, very, very clear as to who was accusing him and who was persecuting him. The Bible calls them, ‘The chief priests and the Elders,!”
    Loosing my religion: REM
    “Life is bigger
    It's bigger
    And you, you are not me
    The lengths that I will go to
    The distance in your eyes
    Oh no, I've said too much
    I set it up

    That's me in the corner
    That's me in the spotlight
    Losing my religion
    Trying to keep up with you
    And I don't know if I can do it
    Oh no I've said too much
    I haven't said enough

    I thought that I heard you laughing
    I thought that I heard you sing
    I think I thought I saw you try

    Every whisper
    Of every waking hour
    I'm choosing my confessions
    Trying to keep an eye on you
    Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
    Oh no, I've said too much
    I set it up

    Consider this
    The hint of the century
    Consider this
    The slip that brought me
    To my knees failed
    What if all these fantasies
    Come flailing around
    Now I've said too much

    I thought that I heard you laughing
    I thought that I heard you sing
    I think I thought I saw you try

    But that was just a dream
    That was just a dream

    That's me in the corner
    That's me in the spotlight
    Losing my religion
    Trying to keep up with you
    And I don't know if I can do it
    Oh no I've said too much
    I haven't said enough

    I thought that I heard you laughing
    I thought that I heard you sing
    I think I thought I saw you try

    But that was just a dream, try, cry, why, try
    That was just a dream, just a dream, just a dream
    Dream”






    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
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  7. #7
    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Cooper View Post
    I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.

    Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.

    Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?

    Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.

    Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!
    A very good afternoon to you Phil! You avoided a proliferation of the collateral issues and got staright to a possible way forward. We must have a respect for all people and for all religions! Religious freedom is a Constitutional right. You can even invent a new religion, if that's what you really want to do! It won't be practical to our economy to classify every religious holiday as a public holiday. This would mean that we would then have about 60 public holidays in a year. It's also wrong to preclude anyone from observing a holy day(or perceived holy day) for what ever reason they have. In fairness, add 3 days to everyone's mandatory 3 weeks leave. They then apply for leave for those days. My gripe is not with public holidays or holy days but simply that Christmas and Easter is not Biblical...
    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singhms View Post
    That is an interesting suggestion Phil, I never taught of it that way. Sort of a compassionate leave system. Max 2 days per person and you chose which religious days would be most important for you to take the days off for!
    I like the compassionate leave system parallel! That too is a way forward. People should not be deprived of their Constitutional right to religious freedom.I stand to be corrected but in your individual case, you have 2 primary religious holy days/festivals per years i.e. 2 days of Diwali/Dipawali?
    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
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    Diamond Member tec0's Avatar
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    Here is the one thing I don’t get.

    As a young boy growing up my dad had to always work on "Christmas" and "New Year" and he still does to this day. Now is the holiday a religious right? If you are overly sensitive about it, the answer will be YES or NO. But that is not the point at all.

    It is about family time… Yes every business every year cries when their staff goes on holiday and they feel it is there right to say no and force religion out the door. And they do! These people consumes 12 hours of there employees only because it is illegal to keep them at work for longer than 15 hours. Now this include weekends and public holidays. Thus you only see you family for less than 2 hours a day every day of your life! Is that fair? Well is it?

    It is always about the maximum hours and maximum profit. There is no longer time for humans to actually enjoy life. And this is the bottom line debate. It is about family. Right now at this very moment I can point to no less than 40 households where the elderly is left to care for the children and the parents must work like slaves just to keep the roof over their heads and food on the table.

    So what is the point? Companies wants to rule humanity and by forcing out religion and religious holidays they will come to a point where you will have less then 30min family time? In some countries this is already fact.

    Is this really what we want? Live and let live… leave things as they are! It is better than noting.
    Last edited by tec0; 19-Jun-12 at 07:27 PM.
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    Diamond Member Vanash Naick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tec0 View Post
    Here is the one thing I don’t get.

    As a young boy growing up my dad had to always work on "Christmas" and "New Year" and he still does to this day. Now is the holiday a religious right? If you are overly sensitive about it, the answer will be YES or NO. But that is not the point at all.

    It is about family time… Yes very business every year cries when their staff goes on holiday and they feel it is there right to say no and force religion out the door. And they do! These people consumes 12 hours of there employees only because it is illegal to keep them at work for longer than 15 hours. Now this include weekends and public holidays. Thus you only see you family for less than 2 hours a day every day of your life! Is that fair? Well is it?

    It is always about the maximum hours and maximum profit. There is no longer time for humans to actually enjoy life. And this is the bottom line debate. It is about family. Right now at this very moment I can point to no less than 40 households where the elderly is left to care for the children and the parents must work like slaves just to keep the roof over their heads and food on the table.

    So what is the point? Companies wants to rule humanity and by forcing out religion and religious holidays they will come to a point where you will have less then 30min family time? In some countries this is already fact.

    Is this really what we want? Live and let live… leave things as they are! It is better than noting.
    Tec0, you always bring an interesting perspective to the table! When I was in retail, I too had to work every Christmas. Despite my views on Christmas and Easter, my family doesn’t share my views. As such, we still have our pickled fish over Easter and we still have the usual Christmas lunch and family get together. I make it a point though, not to buy any new clothing for both these holidays, I also don't go to any church service during both these periods simply because I don't acknowledge them as Biblical holy days. There remains no Biblical basis or reconciliation for both Christmas and Easter. It's common cause that the early Church and Christians for some 300 years after the cross did not celebrate or observe Easter or Christmas whatsoever. It's a verifiable fact that there are endorsed holy days in the Bible which Jesus kept and observed diligently as well as the Apostle Paul as well as the early Church and Christians for the first 300 years after the cross. Man then decided by his own wisdom to invent Easter and Christmas which have no biblical basis whatsoever. We need to celebrate the birth of Christ every single day. We need to remember and pay homage to the cross of Calvary every single day. We need to worship in spirit and in truth as Jesus commanded us to do and there is simply no truth that Easter and Christmas are holy days. Biblically they not!




    1. The 3 wise men, or were they 3 wise men???? The Bible doesn’t say how many men there were, yet in every Christmas nativity scene, there you see 3 wise men!!!

    Giving gifts at Christmas. These men gave Jesus the baby Jesus 3 gifts“gold, frankincense, and myrrh”(Matthew 2:1, 11)

    2. No one exchanged gifts when Jesus was born, so where does this concept of ‘giving,’ and giving presents during Christmas have Biblical basis. Gifts were given to Jesus, as he was a King, even as an infant, it was standard practice for visitors to a King to bring gifts. The queen of Sheba brought gifts when she came to visit King Solomon, and more contemporary, Cleopatra brought gifts when she came to see Julius Cesar. So this is the context in which gifts were presented to the ‘king of kings and the lord of lords,’

    “Did the wise men, as nativity scenes often depict, arrive to find Jesus in a stable manger, there having been “no room in the inn”? (Luke 2:7). No. When the wise men arrived, apparently some time after Christ’s birth, Joseph’s family was residing in a house (Matthew 2:11). Did the writers of the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) consider Jesus’ birth to be one of the most significant events for Christians to acknowledge or celebrate? Mark and John do not even mention the event. Although Matthew and Luke do, neither gives the date. None of the biblical writers says anything about commemorating Christ’s birth. Did Jesus Christ tell us to celebrate His birth? No. He left explicit instructions regarding how His followers are to commemorate His death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26), but nothing about His birth.





    “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” Karl Marx
    vanash.naick@gmail.com
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