You have the right to peaceful protest

[adrianh]

Ok, so I run a manufacturing business and I want to upgrade my IT systems - I know a thing or two about IT so I don't need to use a development company. I know that if I can pull the correct resources together that I can get the project done.

I will require 1 project manager for 36 months, 2 business analysts for 12 months, 1 DBA for 6 months and 10 programmers for 18 months - then my system will be in and I will no longer need their services.

what do you propose I do?

[Justloadit]

Whatever happened to month by month contracts and responsible hiring? If your business sits with useless employees it is your fault! This is classic actually. So because businesses hired the wrong people now the whole country must pay for it?

Oh Teco, just shows you how little you know about employees. Firstly you can not extend a contract for more than 3 times, then the part time worker becomes full time. Secondly, during the probation period, the future employee, does everything so right and everything is perfect, so after your 3 month stint, you think that you have a pretty good person here, WRONG, all of a sudden when they are permanent, they get this mental blockage, in which they can not do anything right, they are also influenced by the existing staff that if he outperforms them, they beat him up. Now you have a problem, as a small company, you have be a policeman, who knows the LRA laws inside out, because what ever you do, you are going to get it wrong. Ja, just hire an HR person to do this, but hello, my company barely makes enough money to pay the rent, and if I am lucky I have a spare Rands to buy some KFC for my family. You get the picture!

So the moral of the story, well I say WTF, I rather not employ anyone, and rather not grow, and rather not create any new jobs. Lekker ne. So we all suffer. Maybe to solve my problem, I could use a labour broker, oh hang on its not good for the employee of the labour broker, OK so fine, I must follow my original decision. I will import and I will automate, and make sure I have as few employees as possible.

Now don't come and say that I am being narrow minded about this stance, because maybe I can go To Mozambique, or Malawi or Zambia for that mater, they are looking for entrepreneurs. And where does that leave RSA?

So whose fault is it anyway? Fact unions exist because people where unfairly treated. Safety laws exist because people died for profit. Now if the companies took responsibility in the very beginning before unions and safety laws then half of what you are crying about would not even existed!

So what happened to freedom of choice?

I do not like that employer because he treats us unfairly. So why as a labour force we do not boycott him, and no one goes and works for him. Would that not weed out the bad employers, rather than making a general rule against all employers?

It is easy to insult me BUT I didn’t higher the useless employee… YOU DID! YOU THE EMPLOYER DIDN’T DO YOUR HOME-WORK! YOU DIDN’T PROTECT YOUR COMPANY! Not me… So now labour broker is an easy fix for your own negligence. So you deem me an idiot. But you can only blame yourself for not protecting your business from the beginning.

My explanation above highlights the exact reason. I have experience, where the oldest person of the work force, by virtue of his age becomes the chief of your work force, and controls your production, and you know what, you are not even aware of it, till one day they die or move on, and all of a sudden your output goes up. This happened to me, I have personal experience in this regard. I used to have 60 employees at one time, so don't tell me it is my fault that I do not know how to hire an employee. You never know when people change!

A clever business person will never had the need for a labour broker Simple administration and proper responsible hiring of employees is all that is needed.

True, I am now being clever and not employing anyone.

And another point, if we are free, why can I not make my own choice about an employee? If he can not do the job, or becomes unproductive, I think I have the choice to make the change, not jump through 25 hoops and pay to correct the problem. The employee has all the choices, and me as an employer has no choice, or limited. At one time i had to retrench an employee, and was then handed a labor law plea by the union for an unfair retrenchment, and they were part of the process. It did not go further, simply because I had to close the company down a few months later, due to the loses caused by my employees who were sabotaging the production.l

[tec0]

Ok, so I run a manufacturing business and I want to upgrade my IT systems - I know a thing or two about IT so I don't need to use a development company. I know that if I can pull the correct resources together that I can get the project done.

I will require 1 project manager for 36 months, 2 business analysts for 12 months, 1 DBA for 6 months and 10 programmers for 18 months - then my system will be in and I will no longer need their services.

what do you propose I do?

In this case I would contact a labour broker because as you said you don’t need permanent staff. I know this I am not stupid Adrian… My concern comes in when Permanent workers gets dismissed because of labour broking. It is not the same thing now is it? My concern is not general contracting. My concern is when people lose their permanent employment to make way for labour broking. And it is happening…

[tec0]

Justloadit > I know nothing

See your argument is that everyone is out to screw you… Truth is you want money and you want cheap labour. Point is however, you will get what you get eventually. I can scream my head of here but the truth is Labour broking will become a reality. You will get everything you wish for.

However, you will no longer be the owner of your company. Consider this if the Labour broker is unhappy with you? They pull out how much money will you make then? They own the manpower thus they own you... When you get a bad name with 1 labour broker and others refuse to do business with you?

En dan ou maatjie wat maak jy dan?

Make no mistake I know of no less than two businesses that labour brokers won't touch…

You make it sound like an employee cannot be held liable? They can and employers do keep them liable. I agree with the automation part. I would do the same. I will admit I lost this argument. But I fear employers and employees will lose more than ever if they hand over an asset such as manpower to another company.

But what do I know…

[Dave A]

OK - while you lot are having fun arguing the merits of labour brokers, I'm ROFLMAO on the "right to peaceful protest" angle (feel free to join in on that discussion any time )

Latest: DA vs Cosatu: From sticks and stones to slings and arrows

The cherry on top:

ANC chimes in
While the DA and Cosatu squabbled dover where to lay the blame, the ANC condemned the violence, but reiterated its view that the DA’s march was “misguided”, saying the DA was “using the wrong platform” to address their concerns and were as such “attention seekers”.

“We as the ANC condemn the violence that took place, but we are clear that the march was misguided as Cosatu is not responsible for government policy,” ANC spokesperson Keith Khoza told the M&G.

Khoza also accused the DA of undermining platforms such as Nedlac, where they could appropriately address their views.

“The issue of unemployment is not going to be solved through a march,” Khoza added. “All economic stakeholders need to come together in order to find a workable and lasting solution to the ongoing problems surrounding jobs in this country.”

While not outright blaming the DA for the violence that unfolded, the ANC maintained its stance that the march was “provocative” on the opposition party’s part.

“We are waiting for a full report on what happened before we lay blame anywhere. However, we will admit there was unnecessary violence and both parties were affected by this,” Khoza said

The ANC doesn't use protest marches?
And the ANC has exclusive rights to attention seeking.

Absolutely

BTW - Too early to tell, obviously - but I suspect in time this little incident is going to end up being the new South Africa's Sharpeville - a defining moment. Just relieved there were no fatalities.

[Justloadit]

Justloadit > I know nothing

See your argument is that everyone is out to screw you… Truth is you want money and you want cheap labour. Point is however, you will get what you get eventually. I can scream my head of here but the truth is Labour broking will become a reality. You will get everything you wish for.

Yes you are quite right, I have found that everyone is out to screw me. My ex partner did me in, because I was too trustworthy. My brother in law did me in becauue I was trust worthy, the number of people that I have given free product to sell on my behalf, who sold the product and kept the money, never to return. The number of staff loans that have never been paid, and the list goes on and on, and if I add the numbers up, I would never have to work again, they run into the millions. So yes unfortunately, I do not trust society any more.

However, you will no longer be the owner of your company. Consider this if the Labour broker is unhappy with you? They pull out how much money will you make then? They own the manpower thus they own you... When you get a bad name with 1 labour broker and others refuse to do business with you?

En dan ou maatjie wat maak jy dan?

Make no mistake I know of no less than two businesses that labour brokers won't touch…

There is no problem, I can hire staff again, with 3 months fixed working contract, and they go away once complete. When you are an entrepreneur, you always make a plan.

You make it sound like an employee cannot be held liable? They can and employers do keep them liable. I agree with the automation part. I would do the same. I will admit I lost this argument. But I fear employers and employees will lose more than ever if they hand over an asset such as manpower to another company.

But what do I know…

Yes an employee is liable, but the amount of time, effort and money to do the right thing, could readily be used in marketing and getting more sales in. So now one third of my day is spent sorting out HR problems, which in turn makes no money, it supposedly saves costs, note there is a difference, making profits or saving on expenses, what is the answer. You can not save money if you are not making a profit.So what are we in business for, is it not to make a profit? If not then join the church and become a social worker, you never have to worry about expenses any more, you just live on gratitude received.

[adrianh]

So tel me tec0, as a man who seems to know so much about running a business;
How many people do you employ?
Do you have an HR practitioner at the businesss that you own?
Have you had to deal with labour issues at the business that you run?
What sort of profit margin does your business make, did you give it all back to your staff?
Have your staff stolen from you?

@justloadit - the answer is simple - (as an employee i used to say "If you want loyalty then get a dog" well as an employer this is what I have to say "Nobody moves my cheese, its mine to do with as I please"
Have your staff come to work drunk?

[tec0]

Yes you are quite right, I have found that everyone is out to screw me. My ex partner did me in, because I was too trustworthy. My brother in law did me in becauue I was trust worthy, the number of people that I have given free product to sell on my behalf, who sold the product and kept the money, never to return. The number of staff loans that have never been paid, and the list goes on and on, and if I add the numbers up, I would never have to work again, they run into the millions. So yes unfortunately, I do not trust society any more.

And so it happens, it is a universal truth that people will take from one till everything is gone. Such is the baptism of business. The soul dies as each knife enters one's back. I know the sting all too well. I have lost much in my life. I spend a lot of time reminiscing exploring the "what if".

It is only natural or so I presume…

It is ever more difficult to recover from the last backstabbing as each time more is lost then the last. Yes why not entertain the Labour broker as they promise no restriction and you are free from the burdens of employment. You can finally write that e-mail to the union explaining how they can take there foot and stick it where the sun don't shine. All of us dreamed to send a similar e-mail I am sure.

Still I cannot help but think that when something is too good to be true it normally is…

Good luck to you Justloadit

[Dave A]

I spend a lot of time reminiscing exploring the "what if".

Heck! If I did that I'd go insane

"Keep the lessons and dump the baggage" is what works for me.

[tec0]

So tel me tec0, as a man who seems to know so much about running a business;
How many people do you employ?
Do you have an HR practitioner at the businesss that you own?
Have you had to deal with labour issues at the business that you run?
What sort of profit margin does your business make, did you give it all back to your staff?
Have your staff stolen from you?

That doesn’t matter anymore… I have lost everything anyway… Every idea stolen… Every contract I got for my partners remained with them. Right now I am just surviving. I hope this gives you the warm feeling you where looking for.

So go ahead rub my face in it…

Truth is I have experienced every level of loss you can imagine. I have experienced every level of backstabbing you can think of. So in that respect I think I know enough to warn others.