E-tolling or E Thief?

[Justloadit]

Just out of curiosity, how much does an articulated vehicle carrier pay and would it pay to ride onto the back of one at the beginning of and roll off at the end of the toll you use???

I smell a business opportunity!!!

What will be interesting, is that the eTag works wirelessly, so effectively the system would pick up all the vehicles on the roll back that have eTags installed, the number plate recognition system, is a back up for when you do not have an eTag.

Now prove that you were not using the toll road.

[Citizen X]

Sanrail and your bank account? I stand to be corrected on this, but it is my personal understanding that Sanrail will have direct access to your bank account, not just a debit order facility but direct access i.e. to go into your acount at a whims notice or no notice at all and simply deduct whatever is necessary. If this is indeed the case, then this put make Sanrail the worst creditor we've ever had in South African history as no other creditor has such powers. I get that this is about money, we must basically pay or if we ommit to then we effectively breaking the law!

[Citizen X]

My brother inlaw sent me an interesting email about Sanrail doing the rounds. It does provide another perspective. See attached PDF....

[Citizen X]

De Lange v Smuts 1998(3) SA(CC)
1. When the notion of Sanrail being granted law enforcement powers made the public rounds, it immediately struck a cord with me. It brought to recollection a leading case wherein a creditor was given law enforcement powers and the constitutional court ruled that it was in essence unconstitutional for a creditor to have law enforcement powers based on the separation of powers doctrine;
2. Owing to the fallibility of human memory I could not recall the name of the case or the LLB subject that it belonged to, so started to look through my old textbooks and notes, and just like it goes when you looking for something, the thing you looking for will be in the last place you look. I found it! It rightfully belongs to the subject Constitutional law;
3. There was a subsection of the insolvency act that provided that if a person was called to appear before a meeting of creditors and this person either refused to be sworn in or to produce a required book or document or answer any question the presiding officer could commit such a person to prison!
4. The central idea is that a non judicial officer(someone not of the courts) cannot commit a person to prison. The separation of powers allow for the Judiciary, The Executive and the legislature. Judge Ackerman concluded that because non judicial governmental officers lack the independence of the judiciary, non judicial officers cannot commit an uncooperative witness to prison;
5. The situation does somewhat change when you give a non judicial officer(Sanrail) powers of the executive or judiciary which is what is happening now. If Sanrail are given law enforcement powers it simply means that your creditor, the person who you owe money to can now wave a legal stick to you. The day this happens this will be a day that will live in infamy. Sanrail could prove to be the worst creditor you’ve ever known!!!
6. “Judge Sachs agreed with Judge Ackermann’s majority judgment, but on separate grounds. He evaluated the constitutionality of the subsection within the context of separation of powers rather than that of freedom rights. He then applied the principle that only judicial officers should have the power to punish misconduct or penalise recalcitrance by means of imprisonment, and concluded that the subsection contravenes the principle of separation of powers as contemplated by the Constitution because it entrusts authority to order incarceration to persons who are not judicial officers. Judge Sachs consequently agrees with Judge Ackermann’s distinction, which allows magistrates to order committal to prison and denies that power to non-judicial government officials.”

“In his majority judgment Judge Ackermann held that the subsection concerned is unconstitutional only to the extent that it authorises a presiding officer who is not a magistrate to issue a warrant committing an examinee at a creditors’ meeting to prison.”

[Citizen X]

As at today’s date we all using the toll roads. We just not being e-tolled as yet. Now if one postulates that in the future when you e-tolled you’ll either save and/or generate R8.84 for every rand you pay, how much more shouldn’t you be making today when you are paying nothing? Did you have some extra time today for the gym as a direct result of using the toll roads? Did you have extra time to spend with your family today as a direct result of the toll roads? Did you get to work any faster today as a direct result of the toll roads? The reality is that the traffic is still as bad as it always was and will only get worse1 Think of it like this: the quantity of road users will continue to increase not decrease. Students finishing university and starting their first jobs will be buying cars, these extra cars will be on the road, this will worsen traffic, not make it any better. The number of new road users will simply increase and increase…
So my lucrative offer stands: Anyone that believes that they will be saving and/or making R8.84 for every rand spent on e-tolling can please buy my e-tolling rights i.e you pay my monthly e-toll bill and in return you can then save and/or make that R8.84 for every rand spent…If you not saving and/or making money due to using the toll gates today, then, please answer me this: How on earth will you be saving and/or generating money when you pay????

[Citizen X]

My brother inlaw sent me an email today which included an attachment(A letter from Botha Attorneys) regarding the etolling debacle. Makes for very interesting reading! Botha Attorneys: I hold you in high regard!!!!See attached
Yesterday, I used 2 higways during peak traffic, the M1 south and the M1 North. The traffic is far worse as far as I'm concerned. There's been next to know development on these 2 highways. The only noticeable additions are the Sanrail structures to etoll you. I also did not have extra time for the gym, nor did I have extra time for my family and I most certainly did not make any money whatsoever. As more road users enter our roads, traffic will only get worse and worse, it will never improve...

[IanF]

Vanash
I heard that Sanral have agreed to change their terms to be in line with the consumer protection act. But these have not yet been published. Aren't Sanral just following big business with totally one sided contracts, that is why government has stepped in with consumer protection act.
Anyway I have no intention of registering. Terms like this scare the sh1t out of 11.

The registered motorist further agrees that failure to make payment in respect of an E-Toll transaction in terms of the terms & conditions may result in criminal proceedings against themselves.

This with the totally unreasonable power hikes and petrol hikes is making SA become just another failed African country.
My feeling is that this will be scrapped or the tolls reduced to a 10c per KM basis, the management in SANRAL must be changed to public servants who serve the public and not corporate executives who are try to scr3w us.

[Citizen X]

Ian,
I think we've reached a tragic stage in our history. The message by government and Sanrall is clear: Pay or else! I agree that petrol, electricity and various other commodities have seen major price hikes. My concern is for the working mom and dad that have a budget that barely balances. Their employers are not going to give them an increase in line with inflation and other short term financial strains. On first glance it does indeed appear that Sanrall are following big business with one sided contracts. The main difference is other creditors don’t have law enforcement capabilities. You have a bond with XYZ bank, you pay diligently but suddenly you unable to pay. XYZ follows the typical legal route debt collection and summons respectively but XYZ bank don’t have law enforcement abilities. A creditor should never be granted with law enforcement powers. It's noteworthy that etolling only applies to us Gauteng...
In principal I’m for the paying of tolls for the maintenance and improvement of our roads. We all realize that quality roads make for a safer journey, we all realize that potholes are intolerable. My gripe is simply this: The amount they want per kilometer is unreasonable. If it’s about recovering the monies spent on this project, make a flat rate of R50 per month for all road users. Eventually they will recover this expenditure and also make a profit. I have not done any qualitative or quantitative research on attitudes of South Africans but my primary purpose as an evangelist takes me to many informal settlements and the vast majority of Black individuals I come into contact with tell me that they have simply had enough of the ANC, that they have lost confidence in the ANC and perhaps more importantly, they not actually even concerned with the national or provincial spheres of government but rather the local level. They provide that not only is service delivery at an all time low but that they treated very badly by the local city council, the local clinic, the home affairs department. The vast majority of individuals that I have spoken to in the informal settlements make it very clear that they not fools and will not vote for the ANC ever again. So whenever that nurse at the local clinic treats someone without dignity and respect they simply tell themselves this nurse is the ANC. I am not going to vote for the ANC again!!! I was a die hard supporter of the ANC(not member, I hold no political party membership), but I can tell you just as clear as night follows day I will never vote for the ANC ever again!!!!!
On the other hand we’ve reached a positive stage in our history where several interest groups who otherwise would not be unified on a single issue now share the same contempt for Sanral i.e. DA, COSATU and AFRIFORUM. We have Sanrall to thank for this positive development. I figure that the days of voting for a party on the mere basis of being the same racial group is slowly but surely changing i.e If there’sa party ABC who has a majority of Indian members but are riddled with corruption, maladministration and reverse racism, I’m certainly not going to vote for them on the arbitrary and frivolous ground that I am also Indian so for that reason I must simply vote for the them NO!!My comments that many Black individuals that I have personally come across choose not to vote for the ANC simply because they are the liberation party and have a predominant Black politician membership should be view in this context.

[MGM]

"or maybe improving the relationships with the rest of your family".

Sounds like the doctor's got family issues.

[murdock]

how are they going to manage the motorcycles...number plate on the back and sometimes small