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Thread: ECB and the idiots from the "AIA"

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    ECB and the idiots from the "AIA"

    9 March 2012.

    IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS AND OTHER STAKEHOLDERS.

    It has come to the notice of the ECBSA, that certain correspondence has been circulated widely by GEIA, a so called AIA, regarding the position of the ECB SA in respect of its appointment to carry out contractor registration as well as the validity position of the ECB COC and TEST REPORT.

    The ECB respectfully requests all those in possession of this correspondence to kindly ignore it. It is simply designed to sow mistrust and confusion.

    The ECB is currently trying to meet with the Chief Inspector to clarify the ECB’s position in respect of the letter received. In either event the letter is clear in that the ECB is to CONTINUE CONTRACTOR REGISTRATION at least until the 31st of May 2012. No provision has been made for the appointment of any other registering agent and it is our belief that any other private body carrying out such a function would be ultra vires.

    Contractors are therefore to continue to register as before and to ensure that they check the date for their re-registration and should it fall due on or before the 31st May 2012 they are required to register with the ECB on or before that date.

    In respect of COC’s the ECB COC and test report with a unique number is still valid and available in hard copy as well as in electronic format. Simply go to the ECB website at www.ecbsa.co.za and register to use the e-COC or buy the hard copy from the National Office.

    This is not the first time that this so called AIA and others have gone out of their way to sow confusion in the industry. I trust that this clarifies the ECB’s position.

    Should you have any other queries please do not hesitate to contact the ECB either by e mail or by telephoning on 012-751 2290, 012-751 4025, 012-753 8081

    Tony Mc Donald

    Chairperson ECB SA.
    Last edited by Adam Mashinini; 14-Mar-12 at 06:37 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Mark Palmer: (Sparks Magazine)

    "IN last month's column, I began an exercise to bring some understanding to Section 5 of SANS 10142-1.
    This section continues to cause some debate as to its implementation due to continued lack of adequate training in the electrical contracting industry.
    A number of disputes, regarding interpretations the by Gauteng Electrical Inspection Authority (GEIA) on certain electrical installations, have been lodged with the Chief Inspector over the last few months and, as an Approved Inspection Authority, I am pleased with the recent outcomes that indicate the AIAs are not far off in their policing activities.
    In determining interpretative differences, it is important for any contractor who disputes the interpretation given by an AIA to submit an interpretation as to why the AIA may be incorrect. The fact that a contractor may not like the current interpretation or that advice given by outside sources may lead to responses to the effect of "well nothing has happened in the past and therefore the particular part of the installation may be deemed to be reasonably safe" does not satisfy the requirements of the Electrical Installation Regulations dispute process. This is of particular importance in ‘existing' installations.
    The requirements of the Electrical Installation Regulations (2009), in particular Electrical Installation Regulation 9(2)(b), are as follows:
    (2) A registered person may issue a Certificate of Compliance accompanied by the required test report only after having satisfied himself or herself by means of an inspection and test that
    (b) an electrical installation, which existed prior to the publication of the current edition of the health and safety standard incorporated into these Regulations in terms of regulation 5(1), complies with the general safety principles of such standard.

    The Chief Inspector, in response to a recent dispute, made a discerning statement in the above regard:
    "Regulations are based on an electrical installation, which existed prior to the publication of the current edition of the incorporated standard. Therefore, the electrical installation shall comply with the general safety principles of the incorporated standard. Regulation 9(2)(b) of the Electrical Installation Regulations does not necessarily refer to Clause 5 of the incorporated standard."


    The above statement lends clarity to the perceived understanding by various sectors of the industry that it is not sufficient just to look at Clause 5 and ignore all other aspects of the electrical installation. It must be taken into account that, at the time of the construction of the basic original installation, there were standards that needed to be complied with. Also, any alterations or modifications would have needed to comply with various other standards that would have been applicable to such alterations or modifications at the time of installation.
    The above statement is supported by Fundamental Requirement Clause 5.3 (SANS 10142-1:2009 Ed 1.7) which states:
    5.3 Characteristics
    5.3.1 The characteristics of the selected equipment shall be appropriate to conditions and parameters on which the design of an installation is based.
    The above fundamental requirement, therefore, places an onus on the registered person to ensure that when testing and inspecting an existing installation, the installation complies with the provisions of the standards applicable at the time of installation.
    In essence, the requirement for a Certificate of Compliance to be issued on existing installations, as prescribed by the Regulations, is based on the premise that when an installation is sold, all incorrect installations will be put right at that time.
    The industry, in general, complains vehemently about the installation of gate motors, pool pumps and motors, geysers, and other electrical installation work done by persons not authorised or qualified to perform such installation work.
    In these cases, the ‘user' is responsible for the work that he has contracted. At the time of sale of the installation, however, these issues must be corrected and that is why we have Registered Persons and Registered Electrical Contractors.
    I fail to understand how the electrical contracting industry in general, does not grasp this fundamental principle and, instead of continually disputing findings by AIAs, look to their peers for not supporting an effective policing system, which ultimately provides the checks and balances to bring ‘users' in line for utilising all and sundry to do electrical installation work.
    As a Registered Person, you may not ignore previous non-compliance by a determination based solely on ‘reasonable safety' and ignoring the ‘prescribed safety' requirements applicable at the time the non-compliance was created.
    Next month, I will begin disseminating the interpretations given by the Chief Inspector on various interpretations given by this AIA and disputed by Registered Persons."

    mark@geia.co.za

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Mashinini View Post

    The Chief Inspector, in response to a recent dispute, made a discerning statement in the above regard:
    "Regulations are based on an electrical installation, which existed prior to the publication of the current edition of the incorporated standard. Therefore, the electrical installation shall comply with the general safety principles of the incorporated standard. Regulation 9(2)(b) of the Electrical Installation Regulations does not necessarily refer to Clause 5 of the incorporated standard."

    Simply by making a "discerning statement" does NOT MAKE IT LAW. MARK PALMER: READ THE EFFEN LAW! Adhere to the published regulations.

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    Mark Palmer is on his own mission: Absolute control of the Electrical Industry - Dictator.

    Mark Palmer wants to be the Alpha and Omega of the Electrical Industry. It will not happen, mr palmer. Dictator.
    Last edited by Adam Mashinini; 14-Mar-12 at 06:53 AM. Reason: PERSONAL ISSUES REMOVED-APOLOGIES.

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    my first question is why do you have to bring up what was said behind closed dooors..are you trying to get a reaction from us...who cares whether mark called you behind closed doors ...thats is between you and him...go sort your issues out between yourselves.

    as far as i can see the electrical industry in in such shambles and the ecb dont know their ass from their elbow...they cant even make up their mind whether the eca...electrical wholesalers...their own website should be registering contractors.

    please give me one...just one reason...why i should waste my money registering as an electrical contractor with the ecb...in other words how does it benefit "me" as an electrical contractor...registering with the ecb? i think you people are living in coco land and stealing our hard earned money to waste on salaries for people who do nothing for the industry.
    Last edited by murdock; 14-Mar-12 at 07:24 AM. Reason: clean up

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    Quote Originally Posted by murdock View Post
    please give me one...just one reason...why i should waste my money registering as an electrical contractor with the ecb...
    As I understand it, it's a legal requirement to register with DoL, and currently this is still administered via the ECB.

    I concede on some levels it seems to be a "waste of money" at times

    And Adam, try not to let assholes get to you.
    Tough at times, I know, but the bigger person stands a far better chance of winning in the end. Be the bigger person.

    BTW - what is the correct issue date for the notice in your first post? I doubt it was 9th May 2012!
    The trouble with opportunity is it normally comes dressed up as work.

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    @ Dave:
    Sparks Magazine 29 February 2012:

    http://www.crown.co.za/news/2012/Feb...ark_palmer.htm

    Apologies: First Post as per the email received 9 March 2012. All ECB members should have received this email.

    @Murdock: What exactly was said behind closed doors? This issue was published in a national magazine! on the 29th of Feb 2012! If palmer thinks, or the chief inspector thinks, they can change the written law by simply making statements in public they have a big surprise waiting for them.

    @Murdock: yes i was expecting a reaction, this is a forum where people react?

    on the personal issues, you are right, this is not the place. anyway i don't care what people call me. :-)

    The ecb registering issue is a legal requirement. as is the regulations. it was ENACTED and published in the government gazette. Without registering at the ecb it is against the law to issue electrical coc and do electrical work. i know it does not work, but it is the law.

    This is what i have a issue with. mark palmer is twisting the law like a koeksister to accommodate his own agenda. and that is, by his own admission, to TAKE OVER the function of the ecb! Then he is judge AND jury! This means that he and his geia CAN refuse to register you as a masters, installation or single phase tester AS HE PLEASES!
    So he can close your business down just like that. That is the core problem. palmer is a very very very shrewd person.

    There was a issue some time ago where the town's "electrical inspector" also had his own "electrical contracting business" Imagine that.
    Last edited by Adam Mashinini; 14-Mar-12 at 07:28 AM. Reason: spelling

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    dont get me wrong...its not that i agree with mark palmer...but the ECB calling the AIA idiots...that must be the joke of the week...and as mentioned in another thread about sheep...it seems the electrical contractors are being led the blind...without any direction forward...nobody is quite sure where we are going with this industry and from where i sit it looks like it is only getting worse.


    when you go to site today...do you use the 2 page COC or is it the 4 page COC or no maybe its the 6 page COC or no wait maybe its been changes again back to the 4 page COC...

    dave are you sure you can register online...not with the electrical wholesaler...or no...maybe you can still register at the eca.

    and then the new thing is when...do you register at the end of the year...or maybe the middle of the year ....or has it gone back to the old registration date?

    i understand that there has to be room for improvement...upgrading...modern technology...etc etc...but really it is a sad state of affairs.

    maybe if the powers that be...made some positive improvements to the industry and turned the industry in the right direction...we wouldnt have the likes of the AIA trying to take control...trying to palm off the responsibilties of the DOL will only encourage other people to try take charge...the bottom line is the DOL must take a stand and employ people who are capable of making positive decisions.

    as for the ecb...i do realise it is a legal requirement...but for what...at this point in time it serves no purpose other than just taking our money...the carte blanche article proves that there are plenty of illegal contractors and nothing being done about it.

    every man and his dog and uncle is an electrical contractor..i found out a little while ago that a company i contracted to more than 10 years ago is still using my mie number to register as an electrical contractor...so much for the ecb...this is the reason i ask why am i wasting my money?

    the industry has too many dust and smoke clouds...grey areas and uncertainty...only once all these areas have been cleared up...will i for one take this industry a little more seriously..in the mean time the only people who are being the affected...is the public...getting a raw deal...lucky for us they are so gulible and dont know the law so we will get away with it...for a while longer...i suppose it helps creating employment

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    Quote Originally Posted by murdock View Post
    dave are you sure you can register online...not with the electrical wholesaler...or no...maybe you can still register at the eca.
    Our currect reg. certificate is good until 31st July - hopefully everything's properly settled down by then
    The trouble with opportunity is it normally comes dressed up as work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Mashinini View Post
    Mark Palmer: (Sparks Magazine)

    " I am pleased with the recent outcomes that indicate the AIAs are not far off in their policing activities."

    mark@geia.co.za
    What "policing"? A COC was declared invalid by GEIA and it took too long to get the report submitted to DOL where it lay until mouldy before being sent to the Chief Prosecutor where it has been for ages now with nothing being done about it.

    For all the "Policing" being done by GEIA and DOL it could just as well be done by the SAP.

    In the meantime the "highly recommended registered contractor" continues to issue invalid COCs' putting people's lives at risk.

    I would love to know what "Policing" has been done that makes Mark so happy.

    According to the Chief Prosecutor only 1(one) case was given to him. After 2 weeks he discovered that was the case being queried. I guess it was difficult for him to find someone who could read English well enough to find the adress, COC number or case number.

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