Are you a sheep?

[tec0]

Well the "mob-individual" comes to mind. They pride themselves to be different politically and free thinking but yet they are still acting as a group because they believe in the same principles set by each other. So even if you consider yourself not to be influential and you have a few friends believing the same thing then already you are a "mob-individual"

Basically for every ideal, idea and concept you will find someone with similar views even more so tanks to the internet. Thus it rings true unification is in our wiring. It may also be for this reason that we cannot see past a monetary system and why political systems are so successful in keeping the populace enslaved.

So how do you become a true individual? In all honesty there is just no way to become unique. Unless if you are born in another galaxy and are effected by green rocks or get bitten by a radioactive spider and have constant PMS maybe....

[tec0]

I do not believe this for one moment. What is right and wrong for a Christian may not be the same for a Moslem. What about having 6 wives and 21 children or gay marriage or abortion or war or euthinasia etc

For each thing that you just mentioned there is someone that will take a stand for and against it... All of them individuals

[wynn]

I prefer to be a goat. Wonderfull!

I think I would like be considered a 'benign wolf in sheeps clothing', I won't bite unles provoked.

[ChrisNG53]

I do not believe this for one moment. What is right and wrong for a Christian may not be the same for a Moslem. What about having 6 wives and 21 children or gay marriage or abortion or war or euthinasia etc

It is apparent that, understandably, the point of the thread has because confused with some more exotic philosophy.

It is not about what is right or wrong in terms of any particular test such as morality or philosophy.

It is concerned with people opting for the wrong option, in terms of their own understanding of the difference between right and wrong. As said, many just decide to follow the camp leadership position for no other reason than to be part of the herd even, in terms of their own understanding, that position is wrong.

Obviously we will genuinely differ on a whole range of matters/issues. The post is not concerned with views and beliefs genuine and sincerely held.

It is concerned with submerging one's own understanding of what is right in order to follow a wrong path as part of a herd.

[adrianh]

Chris I am not confused. Most people follow rules although they know that the rules are rubbish. We follow the rubbish rules because we accept the the law or the religious powers that be made those rules and we are supposed to follow them. The fact that I don't buy beer on a Sunday is not because I think the rule is good, I think its a stupid rule but I have no choice in the matter.

Now be this all as it may, I still contend the the population is programmed to follow rules (mostly legal and religious) and are also programmed to do as their leaders and elders tell them (The Judge, the Priest, the school teacher). They are taught to shut up and follow those rules and if they do they will be good citizens, stay out of jail and go to heaven...

...but we expect them to think for themselves.

Nowhere, not in church, school or even university are people taught how to think. They are taught to act like sheep and to follow the herd, be it on a narrow path.

[tec0]

It is apparent that, understandably, the point of the thread has because confused with some more exotic philosophy.

It is not about what is right or wrong in terms of any particular test such as morality or philosophy.

It is concerned with people opting for the wrong option, in terms of their own understanding of the difference between right and wrong. As said, many just decide to follow the camp leadership position for no other reason than to be part of the herd even, in terms of their own understanding, that position is wrong.

Obviously we will genuinely differ on a whole range of matters/issues. The post is not concerned with views and beliefs genuine and sincerely held.

It is concerned with submerging one's own understanding of what is right in order to follow a wrong path as part of a herd.

I may not agree with you on this. People agree with something because they want the same. As an example, let's say you go to the municipality office. Your hands are shaking with anger frustration knowing that the bill is so high that you will not be able to pay it.

But you also know for a fact the bill is wrong. Thanks to a third party instrument that is correctly installed and certified to give you a correct reading.

The municipal worker insists that you pay the bill NOW or face all kinds of penalties chargers and even the risk that you may end up black listed. Now another person at the back starts to scream franticly picking up lose furniture and attacking the guard for reasons unknown.

At this point you are angry, you are frustrated and this person before you has every intention to take your Livelihood away. What do you do?

The answer is simple you will react with the person and become violent because you feel it is the right choice. OR you don't… now each option will represent a group. There is no getting around it.

Every situation will cause a group mentality.

[Dave A]

I may not agree with you on this.

And then your example supports Chris's point?

[tec0]

So I did, basically I wanted to show that it is not always a group mentality and that sometimes we react purely because the situation existed and one had limited options on how to react.

[ChrisNG53]

Chris I am not confused. Most people follow rules although they know that the rules are rubbish. We follow the rubbish rules because we accept the the law or the religious powers that be made those rules and we are supposed to follow them. The fact that I don't buy beer on a Sunday is not because I think the rule is good, I think its a stupid rule but I have no choice in the matter.

Now be this all as it may, I still contend the the population is programmed to follow rules (mostly legal and religious) and are also programmed to do as their leaders and elders tell them (The Judge, the Priest, the school teacher). They are taught to shut up and follow those rules and if they do they will be good citizens, stay out of jail and go to heaven...

...but we expect them to think for themselves.

Nowhere, not in church, school or even university are people taught how to think. They are taught to act like sheep and to follow the herd, be it on a narrow path.

I could not agree more ... and I suppose that I should have qualified the post by including the reality that, when you are compelled to "conform", you are not being a sheep, provided that, in your mind, you are aware of being so compelled. It is a fine distinction,but valid.
So I suppose we have a whole segment of folk that are "sheep under sufferance", lol.

Your penultimate point has bugged me all my life ... for being so frustratingly true. If I were a dictator tomorrow, the first thing I would do is to decree that philosophy be made a compulsory subject right from junior school stage.

Your last point appears to contradict what goes before, but this is only on a simplistic take of your post. The point is, in fact, well taken.

[adrianh]

The last point doesn't contradict what goes before. What I mean is this. As one specializes more and more the path that you are on narrows, but the path still tends to follow the herd (although the herd is smaller) Look at scientists, they tend to stick together in tight knit packs. Those little communities can be totally irrational when it comes to views of scientists that are no part of the group. They would fight tooth and nail if a view doesn't fit in with theirs. The thing is, all the members of the pack may not hold the exact same view, they become brothers in arms for their "common good"

Now here is a dangerous phrase that fits in nicely with what you've been saying Chris "The common good" - people do things that they do not always agree with; in the guise of doing it for "The common good"