race matters

[Dave S]

It really boils down to judging each person as an individual and not as a part of a group.

I don't believe we should be judging anyone, when we judge others by behaviour, race, religion, etc. Do we consider that they may be judging us in the same manner? We are all capable of making mistakes and judging someone based on a mistake they have made is a bias (I'm not talking about serious crime, etc.). We all tend to jump to conclusions of individuals and group behaviour, maybe we should just accept people as they are and look for anything we consider (personal bias) to be good in them, that way we will overlook the negative and be more supportive of our fellow-man, and they of us.

[Blurock]

When it comes to race I believe the vast majority of people have more in common than differences, its just that they dwell on the differences instead of the commonalities.

A great manager once taught me the benefits of diversity. If you employ only people that talk, think and look like you, you will never be challenged and you will never grow as a person. We have a lot to learn from each other and that is why I love South Africa so much.

Our food says it all, with influences from Malaysia, Greece, Italy, France, Germany, India, Africa and other countries. And braai can really get things going; souties, boere, blackies, whiteys and all.

Imagine an Afrikaans guy introducing an Indian from Durban to traditional Cape Malay cuisine on a Cape wine farm! We had a selection of Cape curry, bobotie, sosaties, samoosas, waterblommetjies, ox tail and tamato bredie. Dessert consisted of small helpings of milk tart, koeksisters and other delicacies. Finished off with a good KWV brandy (beats a French conjac any time!).

[Newretailer]

I don't believe we should be judging anyone, when we judge others by behaviour, race, religion, etc. Do we consider that they may be judging us in the same manner? We are all capable of making mistakes and judging someone based on a mistake they have made is a bias (I'm not talking about serious crime, etc.). We all tend to jump to conclusions of individuals and group behaviour, maybe we should just accept people as they are and look for anything we consider (personal bias) to be good in them, that way we will overlook the negative and be more supportive of our fellow-man, and they of us.

Dave, you are right. Judging is the wrong word. I was thinking along the lines of if a white person sees another white person laughing and being loud, they may just think the person is having a good time. If they see a black person doing the same thing, they may think the person is loud/obnoxious.

I agree with accepting other people as they are. I know from experience that I spent years trying to change other people to be the way I wanted them to be. Did it work? Heck, no! Accepting others for exactly who they are is a good way to happiness.

I don't always succeed in that though lol.

[tec0]

Race is not about right or wrong, it is not about racism at all. Racism is a negotiation tool, it is a tool to predicate with. It is all it ever was and all it will ever be. There are no racial challenges, there is only the populace. If the populace cannot maintain a healthy economy and maintain population growth, the effects will be over population and a poor economy thus allowing for poverty. Why because the economy can only support so many people.

It is about numbers do the math and you will find that the supper rich exist only because of bad legislation, corruption and the lack of laws. IF wealth was properly allocated with a failsafe system along with personal responsibility race will no longer be a factor.

[adrianh]

Race is not about right or wrong, it is not about racism at all. Racism is a negotiation tool, it is a tool to predicate with. It is all it ever was and all it will ever be.

A definition is in order: race

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology
a. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.




So if Racism is not about race but only a negotiaton tool then how come the Germans killed the Jews, the Isreali's kill the Palistinians, the Hutus kill the Tutsis, the Serbs killed the Croats etc

supper rich exist only because of bad legislation, corruption and the lack of laws.

Interesting, so you are saying that Richard Branson, Raymond Ackermann, my brother and a multitude of other super rich people got there because of bad legislation, corruption and a lack of laws - I always thought they got there through education, luck, planning, hard work, making the most of oppertunities etc. I am quite sure that a person like my brother, who worked his butt off his entire life, would just to her this view.

IF wealth was properly allocated with a failsafe system along with personal responsibility race will no longer be a factor.

Ok, so we should all become Communists and have the state give us our daily allocations - we all know how that turned out in the USSR. Fascism won't work with 11 languages and all, We could try Socialism but I think we would all then sit on our Collective butts and do nothing.

You live in a capitalist democratic country, you have the right to choose your leaders and your lifestyle, you have the right to choose to work or do nothing, you have the right to become filthy rich or be dirt poor - the choices are in your own hands. The law cannot protect people from their own stupidity & laziness.

[Dave A]

The law cannot protect people from their own stupidity & laziness.

I always take care to differentiate between stupidity and ignorance. And when it comes to the ways of building wealth, I would definitely add ignorance as a problem. (I'd also tend to rephrase laziness as a lack of self-discipline, but that's probably not worth any serious debate).

Anyway, more to matters at hand. Here's a line of thought I had many years ago which has helped me put this race business in perspective:

Many years ago I remember the results of a study being released that had determined the average IQ of a white was higher than the average IQ of a black - claiming a genetic predisposition towards higher intelligence among the whites. Before we blame this on our apartheid regime of the time, I do recall it was an American study. But that said, the USA was not without its racial predjudice problems at the time either, so who knows how truly objective that study ever was.

Of course, the "results" suited every white supremacist around the world, and they wouldn't hesitate to raise it as justification for their racial predjudice against black folk.

And here's my big point -
Arguing whether it is true or not is a waste of breath.
True or not it is useless information that proves and justifies nothing.
The average is absolutely, completely and utterly irrelevant when it comes to looking at the qualities of individuals.

At the risk of putting (or this being taken) badly - Pick a white male at random and I'll find you a brighter/stronger/more good looking/more dynamic/more industrious/more well-spoken (add your own "quality" obsession here) black female. What use those averages now? Some slight shift in probability at most (perhaps) - but totally irrelevant when you're stacking up two random individuals against each other.

The problem with "average" and "typical" is that massive diversity Adrian referred to.
When it comes to people, I don't care about average, and I suggest no-one should.

What we should care about is the qualities (or specific needs) of the individual in front of us.
Or the family without a bread winner.
Or the kids having to go to a badly run school.
Or the workers who have to work in dangerous conditions.

The list goes on and on - a list of real needs and qualities that's got nothing to do with race.

If I do have a stand-out "group" predjudice, it's with professional politicians. They're in the business of mustering support. It's what puts food on their table, a roof over their head and money in the bank. And if they haven't got a worthwhile thought in their head - if they don't have a constructive leadership role to contribute, it's got to be awfully tempting to go for the "low hanging fruit", even if it's actually harmful to society.

And unfortunately, in South Africa at the moment, race is low hanging fruit.

Great leaders don't need it.
But I'm quite sure there's more than enough wannabees who recognise it's their only chance on the political gravy train.

[adrianh]

Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race. Now of course, this doesn't only apply to South Africa. The broader policy does colour the way in which individuals interact in that the one is made to feel superior to the other. When a company is told that it cannot do business with certain entities because it doesn't have a particular racial profile and it is known that there are people of a particular race available that fit the bill exactly but cannot be hired then the resentment becomes personal.

How does the saying go: Culture adheres to the law of gravity. It doesn't flow from the bottom up, it flows from the top down.

I agree with your views on averages, it says nothing about the individual but it does colour ones wider views. When you get 200 CV's for a job, one would very quickly profile those CV's based on the corporate culture vs the perceived culture of the individual. If your company consists, for whatever reason of 99% married white woman, would you consider interviewing every Moslem man in the list, or by the same token, if your workforce consisted primarily of older Muslem men, would you consider interviewing every young black girl. So, this means that we have to, for the sake of "culture" profile people so that they are able to work in harmony without cultural / racial conflict. I think that the word "Race" is abused to mean black vs white - of course the racial divided is much more subtle and complex.

The reality is that there are racial divisions and it is quite acceptable for those divisions to exist. I don't get Chinese humour and I also (on the whole) don't like Chinese food. I am sure that they feel the same about us. We are all free to be who we are and to feel cumfortable amongst our own. The problem is that one cannot force the different cultures together and expect them to mesh from the word go and it makes it so much more difficult if the powers that be have a clear bias.

[Dave A]

Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race.

True. Doesn't mean it's right and in my view that needs to change.

The reality is that there are racial divisions and it is quite acceptable for those divisions to exist.

Unless I'm misinterpreting your meaning in "divisions", no I don't think it's acceptable.

I don't get Chinese humour and I also (on the whole) don't like Chinese food.

Is that really a serious issue? Is that legitimate cause for predjudice?

The problem I see with racial discrimination in particular is it is the lowest of low blows - because there is absolutely nothing you can do to change your race.

You can learn to appreciate Chinese humour if you want to. You could cultivate a palate for Chinese food and appreciate its nuance.

When it comes to race, you can't change your race. But you can change your perception of race as an issue.

One's race only has value in a society bigotted enough to ascribe value to it.

[Justloadit]

Quote Originally Posted by adrianh
Dave though I agree with you the problem still remains that government policy is based upon race. Where an individual is discriminated against for being a particular race.

Quote Originally Posted by Dave A
True. Doesn't mean it's right and in my view that needs to change.

This is why I think that the songs sung by the ANCYL - 'Kill the boer" goes with Adrian's and Dave's statements, they are keeping the hatred and the discrimination alive. What does a 5 or 6 or 7 year old hearing this song think?
Oh this is a an old war song so the words are meaningless! I think not, it starts to instill the racism at an early age, and by the time he is a young adult, he is already prejudiced to the world around him. If as a young kid he asks his parents why 'Kill the boer' is being sung, they will naturally tell him that this was aimed at killing the bad white man, they are not going to further tell him that now it is OK as we have all made peace and are living as one nation.

[murdock]

and to think the only reason we are diffrent colours and have diffrent hair etc is because of the climate we are suppose to live...